in General

The iPad provides the ultimate browsing experience?

Update: I feel I need to set something straight to stop the rampant misrepresentation of this post. Firstly, this is not the official Flash blog of Adobe. I am one of hundreds of employees that blog. Secondly, regarding the screenshot of the adult website, that was added by me in an attempt to be humorous. Not surprisingly Adobe did not find this humorous at all and that is why I removed it. So there is no official Adobe movement to “play the porn card” like some “news” outlets are reporting. It is only an individual employee who overlooked the fact that some people are offended by the idea of adult content on the web. As for the main idea of this post, Adobe believes that something that ignores a huge part of the web cannot be the ultimate browsing experience. Personally I love Apple products, especially my iPhone, and that is why I’m so passionate about all this.


  1. Nice collection, you should collect even more to make a bigger example! Then post to all mac new sites.

  2. I know it’s true and all…

    … but is the porn screen shot really necessary? What I mean is… is it really in Adobe’s best interest to play up a “Flash = porn” angle?

    Just sayin’….

  3. Also if there was some way to detect whether the flash was an advertisement or some vital interactive content then we could please everyone.

    I work as a developer for a eLearning company and we create content using flash for corporate and universities, so if apple hope to pitch this to students then they might have a problem accessing the universities INTERACTIVE material.

    Other than that I will be buying one for couch web surfing….

  4. @Jeff I’m not playing up any porn angle. But it is HUGE part of the web and is almost entirely Flash-based. Plus I pixelated the screenshot in Photoshop. I thought it was nice work :)

  5. I can’t say I’m certain this is in any way going to HELP the problem.

  6. Hey Jeff, Good point! At least the author has “blurred” out the flash porn screen shot!

    So, I don’t know enough about the Ipad, but why wouldn’t they support Flash? hmmmmm……

  7. If Apple allowed the iPad to run Flash then they’d have no excuse for the iPhone not running Flash since it’s the same OS.

  8. that’s funny but at the same time… these same websites haven’t been accessible from an iphone / ipod touch for the past few years either.


  9. Owee! Like a jilted lover. Somehow thinking all my HTML5 developer friends might have had it right.

    Will Flash CS4 allow for iPad friendly app publishing?

  10. Flash is on it’s way. Glad to see Apple helping push it a bit faster by refusing to let it be on their latest devices. HTML 5!

  11. @Danno yeah but on a small phone there is at least an argument. But for something that is touting the “ultimate browsing experience” and is the size of my laptop, it is easy to see the real reason. They don’t want anything to cut into their app store profits. So it might be a nice device, but IT DOES NOT provide the ultimate browsing experience.

    @Ghostboy find some new friends :)

  12. Too bad you didn’t show a NY Times or WSJ page with all of the holes in it where megabytes of Flash-based content advertising would be.

    Click to Flash and Flash Block are your friends (grin).

  13. @Justin whatever fanboy. Check out the the FWA and tell me which of those sites could have been created in HTML 5. Or maybe you think those sites aren’t appropriate for the web. Maybe we should make everything static. Please tell me.

  14. Not being funny people but any site which simply shows a plug-in square isn’t being accessible. Alternative content should always be provided for screen readers and the like. Just lazy developers.

    Also Adobe need to be pulling their finger out just as much as Apple in getting either a full or even a stripped down version of Flash on the iPhone/iPad.

  15. @Michael do you know how much revenue those ads generate? Rich media advertising is an IMMENSE part of the web economy. Who do you think pays for all this content you look at? But putting that aside, I don’t see why Apple doesn’t just include Click2Flash in the browser. Then if people want or need to use it they can. If you hate Flash then you never have to click on it. The reason is that Apple does not want you to visit certain websites because they can’t charge you for them.

  16. I’m getting real sick of Apple’s arrogance with the Flash Player. How long can they keep up this stupid mentality?? If Adobe is making the next version of Flash capable of publishing apps for the iPhone/iPod then why can’t Apple release the source code to Adobe to make the player work on the iPhone/iPod? Wait a minute it’s because Apple is too greedy for their own good. They want to control everything that goes on their products.

  17. @iPadFriend let me say this as clear as I can: APPLE DOES NOT WANT THE FLASH PLAYER TO PERFORM WELL. They don’t want you to go to Hulu or play Flash games because they worry that you won’t buy their apps. We have been trying to work with Apple since the iPhone came out.

  18. I just don’t get Apple. I get the style thing.. and they are very good at selling it.
    But there lack of respect for the user and the UX kills me.

    Silverlight didn’t do it, nor will html5.

    i want my HTC-Pad.

  19. This is awesome, Lee. Totally agree with you.

    I’ve had an argument with a friend not long ago about this. iPhone had a lame excuse (high cpu usage crap), but now it’s just obvious apple is making money with their istore or whatever it’s called.

    The sad thing is apple and developers do benefit (good for them, this is business after all), but the iphone user, for example, is just wasting money by not being able to choose from all that great content Flash platform is able to deliver.

  20. Jeeze Lee. This post and your comments are coming off incredibly defensive. I don’t think its helping your case.

  21. I have an iPhone and I am fine with the absence of Flash – the iPhone is not designed for the web experience. Understood.

    But NOT having Flash on the iPad is a slap in Adobe’s face. In fact it is a slap in all of our faces!

    Tired of the Flash hating. If you can’t look at the FWA site and see the value of Flash, then I don’t know how else to convince you. The work is grounbreaking, artful, beautiful. It can’t be replicated with any other software.

  22. @Matt just being honest. Not being defensive at all but rather playing offense. And the post is defensive? It’s just an image :)

  23. @EricJ
    > “Bang Bros? really?”

    Well, Lee is also just a man! We all have needs, you know?! ;)

    That blue lego really makes me curious! I never saw it before! Wonder if I can eat it!

  24. The way I see it, someone in every industry has got to get the shaft. In this case, I am happy that Apple is taking the load in regards to Flash. Well deserved considering Steve Jobs’ ability to twist the public into using his personal toys.


  25. @lee

    Not a fanboy, just a webdev and someone who uses the internet. Flash is not a very efficient plugin and is full of security bugs. In it’s day it was good enough because there was nothing else out there, but that’s changing now with HTML5. Open web standards are going to win out, just a matter of time. Even youtube has started a beta HTML5 video test.

  26. @Justin HTML 5 cannot come close to the capabilities of Flash > the FWA. BTW your website makes nice use of Flash charts, which wouldn’t show on the iPad.

  27. Yeah … this is going to help. I am sure Steve Jobs is going to change his mind now.

    If Flash was on iPhone or iPad I would do everything I could do to uninstall it. It always causes browser crashes and annoying ads.

    Adobe sold their soul to the Advertising industry long ago. Now live with it and come to terms with the fact that Apple will never ever put Flash on the iPhone or iPad … period.

    P.S. There is plenty of non flash porn out there for the iPhone. :)

  28. @John so because Steve won’t change his mind that means I can’t say it is a mistake? Why not make it optional on the iPad. Then you could easily not enable it while the rest of the world would have the choice to view the content they want.

    PS – the iPhone versions of porn sites are lame compared to the real sites, or so I’ve heard :)

  29. heh, Lee, you’re such a wildman…. ;-) Got some more for you, plug search query “ filetype:swf” into Google…. ;-)


  30. I’ve been a Flash/Flex developer for years.

    I will not be buying an iPad, iPhone, or iPod unless it supports Flash.

    Someone should start a boycott site that we can all sign…

  31. I don’t understand why people are getting so worked up about this… don’t like the fact that Apple doesn’t support Flash Player in Safari on the iPhone/ iPad OS? don’t buy the product… simple.

  32. Love it! The exact reason Apple doe not have flash is that they want to control all of the media, and in-turn the revenue of the device.

    As much as I hate it, I can see why they like the ecosystem to stay closed from a business standpoint.

    I thought if Apple did launch a tabletesq device it would be an amazing development platform for flash/air multi-touch apps. Now to do so we have to jump through a series of flaming hoops, and slow the development process to a crawl.

    That said, I am fed up with Apple making claims about there products they cant back up. There marketing speak and verbiage is not only misleading, at times it borders unethical advertising.

    Apple opened the DRM of the music store and people still buy music, and iPods. This Apple is rotten. Get a clue boys.

  33. Apple is making history (no doubt), they’re creating a new way of digital racism, we! FL developers are being thrown out of high percentage of the digital market.

    @urban revolution I would love to see a HTC Diamond Pad too!

  34. @Tom if we hated Apple products that would be simple. But I personally want Flash on that thing because it would be great. In addition to that, it is vital to get the truth out about Jobs saying that this has the ultimate browsing experience. Simply false.

  35. Absolutely agree with you Lee.

    This retarded fanboy mentality of defending everything Apple says and does is just that, retarded (see

    It’s quite clear that if Apple wanted Flash to function it would be.
    Power to them if the game is about disappointing a bunch of people that would never buy their product, and offsetting that by directing the rest to purchase their commercial applications.

    My response is to not buy it, and spread the word to my friends about the limitations. Adobe does their part by trying to get Flash working and if it happens, hey awesome.

    At the end of the day do we as happy content-platform-restriction-less users really care if product X can’t view Flash? Probably not, well not unless Adobe decides to drop it all because the iGadgets have achieved 100% user penetration (had to get a Bang Bros reference in there).

    I, for one, welcome your new blue lego overlords.

  36. @ash No need for a website. I’ve boycotted Apple products long time ago. And I wanted to buy a MacBook once…

  37. @lee, what do you think the chances of half of the fwa sites running on the 1Gh chip really are? If it wasn’t for job’s statement about the “ultimate browsing experience” would you still be as pissed off?

  38. totally! “ultimate browsing experience” is BS!!! I laughed out loud when he said that in the keynote, and laughed harder when the blue lego poppped up in his demo. I was ok with ,and still understand, why flash is not on the iphone. I believe there could be a serious performance issue there, but this is just crazy. Flash is such a huge part of the web. It’s like Windows only letting you use IE for a browser in their OS…… whats the difference? F*ck those elitist bastards. But I’ll probably buy one and make stuff for it……. still,,,Long Live Flash!

  39. @Matt all of the sites here would run fine. But the real story is that Apple does not want people to visit any site that might cause a lack of revenue in the app store. If Apple were interested in putting Flash on their devices then we could improve the performance considerably, just like we do with Microsoft. Again, make Flash an option and let people decide for themselves. What is the issue with that?

  40. Let me start off by staying I love my Flash (I make a living developing in Flash), and I love my Apple products. Without either, I’m a very poor person. (ok..reality is that I might be okay on a PC w/ Notepad too), but I’m going to say my piece and you’re free to disagree.

    Fact: Apple doesn’t want Flash on the iPad or the iPhone. There is no monetary incentive for them to put it there. The cries I’ve heard from the community fails in comparison to the masses that have already purchased iPhones and iPods. We can scream bloody murder that the “real web” involves Flash, but if you rule out ads, I’m guessing that is Flash actually has a small part of the average persons daily web surfing experience. Not counting Lee and his Bang Bros surfing. …. Kidding Lee! …sorta ;)

    Apple is about control. This is nothing new. From the dawn of the Mac back in 1984, Steve Jobs wants control. That is not going to change. The first thing he did when coming back after being ousted, kill off the clones. Why? Control and to make money. Why is Apple using their own A4 chip in the iPad and not Intels Atom? Control. That control from one end of the spectrum to the other is why many of us like/love the Apple ecosystem. Shit just works and it works well because Apple is a control freak and they know, by controlling it from one end to the other, that’s where they can make their money. As of this weeks quarterly reports, they have $39.8 Billion dollars on hand. Twice as much as Adobe is worth. And lets face it, they don’t need Adobe like they used to. At one time, Apple needed Adobe because Macs were for designers and Adobe made software for designers. A nice little match. Nowadays, Apple is about consumer devices for little kids to elderly adults and many of them don’t really care about Flash. The average web surfing attention span hits a site that doesn’t work, doesn’t load, whatever, and away they go off to another website.

    I also believe Apple also doesn’t want Flash on the iPhone OS because the Flash Player run time is closed. The SWF spec is open, so are other parts of the Flash player, but the player itself is closed. I can’t comment on any recent events made by the Open Screen Project, but at my last 9-5 job, we tried to get involved with Adobe on porting Flash Player to our embedded player and no dice, and I know of two big gaming companies that build their own SWF player. I only point this out, because in some ways, Adobe isn’t too far off from Apple.

    I think John Gruber ( had a piece on it earlier, and I tend to agree, but Apple wants to control the building of the entire device (hardware and software) without relying on an external companies. Apple has been burned repeatedly when counting on others and they don’t want to be held hostage by anyone (or as few people as possible). They’d rather hold others hostage.

    Make no mistake, I’d love to see the Flash Player on the iPad or even my iPhone. Heck — I need my Hulu like the other guy (or porn, whatever). But I’m also not holding my breath for it either. Maybe, big maybe, if Apple starts losing customers to other devices that are flash-enabled, they might change their tune, but that’s not really happening and for all the rants going on the past few days, I’m willing to bet that the iPad will be a #1 device being shown off by Adobe it comes time to demo Flash CS5’s ability to create ipa apps.

    As a developer, I’m glad to see Adobe doing, what is in the opinion, the smarter move, and building tools for the iPhone. Flash CS5 will allow me to get my content, or more particular, my clients content, on the iPhone/iPad. I’d also like to see them think beyond Flash, and provide me a Flash CS4/Flash Builder-like tool for creating pure HTML experiences. It can be done.

    Sorry if any of this is disjointed. I got a bit wordy and the small text area and scrolling up and down might have jumbled up my thoughts (too lazy to copy and paste into TextEdit)

  41. @lee “what’s the issue with that?” Well speed first and foremost. Every time a bad banner ad crashed the browser (and that would happen, and is totally not adobe’s fault) the AVERAGE CONSUMER (not those that read this blog) would blame the tablet, not the plugin.

    The argument about revenue is fun, but not practical, especially when the most popular apps like the Facebook and NYT app are free.

  42. @John people surf differently on their phone than they do on a full-size device. I would argue that the majority of web surfers interact with Flash all the time. There is only one reason that Flash is not going to be on the iPad. So Apple can prevent people from accessing certain content and, thus, they will have to purchase apps. They have the right to do that. But that is the reason.

  43. @Matt you misunderstood what I was saying. What is the issue with making it an option like Click2Flash? You simply click on the Flash things that you actually want to see, i.e. not ads.

  44. Mr Lee,

    I went to one of these web sites with firefox for mac. My laptop fans went crazy after 30s. Take a look at the CPU consumption:

    This is on an Intel Core 2 Duo running at 2.33 Ghz.

    More than half the power of a modern dual core processor to display a thumb-size video and 2 simple animations!

    Do you think a low-consumption ARM processor running at 1Ghz can handle it??
    And what about battery life???

  45. @Reda not going to rehash this too much because I said it in my other posts. Apple is not cooperating in our attempts to improve the performance of the Flash Player on the Mac. Microsoft is, and in FP 10.1 we cut the CPU utilization in half for watching video. Same with other mobile device manufactures. We would love to work with Apple to do the same but they are making a strategic decision not too so that they can increase their revenue. Hey that’s business. Another thing to note is that the site you showed is filled with Flash and just because it takes up a lot of CPU doesn’t mean that kids will not want to play with it. Give people the option is what I’m saying.

  46. Flash is the new Real Media. I was a Flash designer a few years ago (up till late 2003) before I started learning about the web in a way that’s actually useful. Not making people wait minutes before they could start interacting with a web site was a huge benefit.

    Now I can do 90% of what I used to do with Flash by simply using HTML, CSS and JavaScript. It’s very lightweight and doesn’t crash browsers with CPU overloads, loads quickly and the user is in the experience way before they waited 30 seconds and went “screw this, I got stuff to do”.

    Today my only interaction with Flash is making WordPress driven ghost sites that are presented to search engines so opaque Flash sites can be indexed properly. It’s a good part of my income but not a task that I’ll miss doing.

    With HTML5 video becoming more prevalent and Flash video merely will be a fallback option for IE6, it’s time for companies to re-assess how they web dev budgets are spent.

    Nothing stops Adobe from making the Flash authoring app an HTML5 authoring app (and clean up the interface in the progess) with a really good SVG implementation and Canvas support. The JavaScripts would be huge, since it’s Adobe (huge code has tradition) but can be compiled to both make it smaller and also put paranoid clients at ease.

    And as usual people who zoned in on the status quo of their knowledge will always be angry at change and learning different skills. That’s nothing new, it’s just digital darwinism.

  47. @Frank “Now I can do 90% of what I used to do with Flash by simply using HTML, CSS and JavaScript.” Haha let’s see it then. And it doesn’t matter what you or I think. The fact is that Flash is insanely popular with the general public and drives huge revenues. But make it optional. Why would you object to that?

  48. @Frank and to add to my last comment. If you can do something in HTML then we recommend people to do that. Use Flash when you need richer interactivity. It’s not HTML OR Flash. They can coexist.

  49. As a flash developer and mac user, I think Apple is becoming an enormous strategic threat to Adobe. One of Flash’s key strengths is in its ubiquity. With mobile internet usage taking off (note not shifting too, but taking off) its obviously important for Adobe to get in on this market. To that effort they have their Flash 10.1, and the vast majority of hardware and software providers partnered up, in terms of numbers.

    However, if the iPhone – and iPad by extension – emerges as the dominant mobile platform, then Adobe will be muscled out of the mobile market entirely. Flash needs its ubiquity. If only 50%, or 25% of your users can see something targeted at mobile in flash, because the other 50 or 75% are on iPhones, you wouldnt go down the flash website route, you’d look elsewhere.

    Flash is extremely strong when it is very dominant. I think we’ll see that slide a bit this year, as other than Android, Apple is quickly cementing itself as the mobile standard. Without flash…

  50. Forget Flash, I bet Apple will start blocking HTML5 content when it will start pushing into their territory, like games and video. They’ll keep doing that until they have their own private Internet :D

  51. in my case. not only do i browse pages with flash content.

    it puts food on my plate. and if the flash player will be accepted in iphones and ipad, it will put more food on my plate :D

    @steve jobs: we just won’t die eh?

  52. @Adam all one has to do is to look at the global numbers for Apple. They are a loooong way off from being the dominant mobile platform. Companies will not stop using Flash because it is extremely profitable, especially in the advertising space. But you will see alternate versions of sites, videos, etc. But remember, HTML 5 will take years to even come close to being a standard on everyone’s machines like Flash is. That is assuming all the browser manufacturers can get along.

  53. So it’s absolute fact that Apple is blocking flash plugin for iphone/ipad because of fears that it will harm appstore sales? Or is that just supposition? Apologies if this sounds naive but genuinely curious.

  54. @Ghostboy well it’s possible that they’re genuinely good people who are looking out for people’s best interest by keeping them away from content that they think people won’t like. But obviously I disagree. But it is not a fact in the traditional sense of the word.

  55. This, as most first-generation Apple products, has not delivered to expectations. The omission of Flash is just one of it’s MANY flaws; nevertheless, this is not cause to fear HTML5. The people who claim HTML5 will be the end of Flash, see this as a sign from God. I see it as a defect in Apple’s design. I know Adobe has bent over backwards to get Flash Player running on Apple’s devices.. and I’m certain someone has it working somewhere within the Adobe labs… ;)

    @Ghostboy: The rumors i’ve heard include speculations that Flash is processor intensive and would drain the battery significantly reducing the **cough** 10 Hour Battery Life **cough** of the iPad. (But all that open GL gaming won’t. I think not.)

    @Lee: I know your crystal ball is no clearer then mine, but with CS5 pending release, supporting iPhone applications; has there been any speculation on adding iPad support to the Flash API?

  56. Is this Adobe’s official reaction? Pretty emotional.

    But don’t cry too hard, Adobe is a monopoly of its own. It controls the authoring tools for an entire industry. If they also control a closed source and ubiquitous runtime that no one else can make good tools for because it’s closed, then it’s a dangerous situation.

    Maybe Adobe has no plans to catch up to HTML like HTML is trying to catch up with Flash, but it has this Flex initiative that they built a demo site with that does nothing HTML can’t do. So people are supposed to believe you and Adobe when you say to use Flash only when appropriate? Do you believe Adobe when they tell you that?

    Maybe they got tired of making authoring tools for HTML and are placing their bets against it? Will dreamweaver be a serious tool in CS5?

    So it’s only healthy that Apple are challenging this encroachment on open web technologies (which are fundamentally better if not as feature rich)

    They forbid Java and every other browser plugin VM, so it’s not like Flash is some exception. You can still compile Unity3D, Java, Flash, etc.. and run them as apps. And most of the sites you mention can be apps, except FWA.

    So the end user wins here. The FWA links to one usability nightmare after another.

  57. @Frank “Now I can do 90% of what I used to do with Flash by simply using HTML, CSS and JavaScript.” Haha let’s see it then. And it doesn’t matter what you or I think. The fact is that Flash is insanely popular with the general public and drives huge revenues. But make it optional. Why would you object to that?

    This is exactly why people say you’re getting defense. Because you are. Frank is right; Flash’s prime was in the early 00s and this is a huge threat to you guys. Before designers and developers had better means to make interactively rich pages, it was king. Newgrounds isn’t the site that it used to be for a reason, you can say that about any and all of the Flash-dominant sites of yesteryear.

    I’m not a fangirl, but I the only site above that has any sort of relevance is Hulu and even then it’s becoming more and more restrictive; content doesn’t stay up for long and in the very near future it is likely that the primary content users go there for will be on a paid subscription basis, and we know the internet-at-large has definitely given their opinion on that business practice.

    I can get a good portion of CNN’s content without Flash (their video player sucks anyways), if I didn’t go to better online news outlets.

    They don’t play ball the way you want them to and they don’t need to. A very good portion of the full-functioning apps are free or are made by trustworthy enough brands where you don’t worry about paying a couple of bucks for them after you’ve played the demo. Hell, even more have their full versions for free with tactfully placed ads. Good for them, I’m willing to deal with seeing an ad for two seconds if I get to play the entire game free for life.

    As a designer and a developer, I have had very little encounters with my phone wherein I’ve wanted to do something specific and not been able to because it was Flash. Thankfully, there was a free app for that. In the event that it wasn’t, it wasn’t going to kill me to wait an hour or so to get to an OS that can tackle it.

    I understand the point you’re trying to make but you are coming off just as self righteous as you’re proclaiming Apple to be, and it’s making your argument even less and less appealing with each comment you defend yourself with. Sometimes making a clear & concise point and walking away is the best thing to do.

    We’re all disappointed with the iPad for plenty of reasons; Flash on something like this, I’m fine without. There are plenty of fully-functioning tablet PCs already in the world and even better ones on the horizon. So I’m sorry you aren’t being allowed to tap into that cash cow, but you’ll live.

  58. @lee:

    I don’t understand why Apple should cooperate to improve the Flash player performance.
    You say there is a lack of public APIs. Do you mean browser-plugins APIs or lower level OS APIs ?

    If it’s a browser-plugin API problem, why don’t you work with Mozilla and Google to improve Flash performance on Firefox and Chrome first ? I’m sure Safari would follow.

    If it’s an OS API problem, how do you explain that an open source video player like VLC can play the same flv file with much less CPU than the Flash player ?

    Finally, how do you explain that Flash performance is not much better on an open platform like Linux ?

    I’m not talking specifically about video playback performance: every flash content with animation takes too much CPU. For example, visiting a web page with 1 or 2 animating flash ads makes the fan speed up.

    If you want to see Flash on the iPhone or the iPad, start by optimizing it for Mac OS.
    If you honestly think there is a technical problem with the OS preventing you from doing your job, explain it to us – Mac users, and we’ll be on your side against Apple. (I appreciated one of your previous posts where you explained why the new multi-touch events are not supported in the browser)

  59. I know this isn’t what we all want, probably not what Adobe wants either, but what if Apple made the flash plug-in an app in iTunes.

    Apple would make there money, customers would have a truly ultimate web experience, everyones happy right?

  60. Lee, you think Apple, that sells $2,00 iMacs and $3,000 notebooks and $500 iPhones and now $500-$800 iPads, is worried because some web site might sell a Flash banner ad for $0.10 a click?

    Get real. Apple sells content as cheap as they can, because content sells HARDWARE. Cheap content is a loss leader for Apple. The iTunes and App store revenue isn’t bad, but the iTunes and App store PROFITS after expenses are miniscule compared to those on the hardware side of the business.

    Take apps. Apple just announced 3B apps downloaded off the store. But probably 60% of those are free, most are $0.99, and of that Apple gets just 30% before costs and transaction fees are subtracted. Do the math and that’s roughly $400 million in profits since INCEPTION. Apple did $15 billion dollars worth of business last QUARTER. They will do $50 billion this year. Less than $100 million in app store PROFITS per quarter is peanuts.

    So let’s kill the “protecting app store profits” meme. Doesn’t wash.

    Now, let’s talk video. I agree that streaming video is in high demand. You know it. I know it. Apple knows it. Steve knows it. So why would Apple not support something that’s in demand, and that people want, and that would make buying and owning their iPhones and iPads and Touch’s even MORE valuable?

    Why would Apple NOT want to sell hardware?

    Why indeed?

    Well, it just so happens that I can tell you EXACTLY why Apple doesn’t want Flash on the iPhone. Nor on the 3G iPad. And it’s not because Apple is afraid someone might write a semi-popular Flash-based Sudoku game and make 39 cents.


    AT&T is already bursting at the seams trying to keep up with the current load. So what do you think the net effect would be if every popular Safari web page now also downloaded ten-times its weight in “rich” Flash-based advertising?

    What if millions of people started trying to stream TV shows from Hulu? And started streaming HD porn from the Bang Brothers? (grin)

    AT&T’s 3G wireless network would melt down.

    That’s the secret.

    I know you’re a big-time Adobe Flash Evangelist, and I know it must tickle you pink to think that big bad Apple is scared of a little Flash plugin.

    They’re not. So get over it.

  61. Hi,

    I am a flash platform developer developer of many years experience. I work in the online gambling industry and without flash we would have no mechanism for delivering our content.

    We have quite a few flash software engineers here and we test on Mac, Linux, and windows (the vast majority of our customers). The ONLY problems we ever see are Javascript problems and incompatiblities between browsers – IE and Firefox being hands down worst culprits (Webkit rules :-)). IE 7 is still the most popular browser out there.

    For all you people who think HTML5 and Javascript will replace Flash, I say bring it on – Go on write a rich, entertaining and secure online gambling game in JQuery that works in IE7 – go on I dare you.

    All the time that there are browser wars Flash will be the only platform that is truly cross platform enough to satisfy our requirements.

  62. @John Patterson.

    John’s comment rings harder to me than any other comment so far. I agree that Lee’s employer (specifically the Flash/Flex divisions) are so entwined with elite boutique ad agencies, it kills them to see the blue squares on the NY Times 3 minutes into a new Apple product keynote. My take on flash is that it is as great as a proprietary web technology will ever get, and its best days may be behind it.

    As long as there is a breath of life in Steve Job’s body, flash will not be on the iPhone. Has anybody tried to go through the App Store approval process lately? Not only does it take forever, but they SCOUR your code to make sure you are not using illegal (to Apple) function calls, libraries or generally using the device in any way other than the way Steve intended. Flash code is too much of a liability for the ‘intended use’ of the device at this time. Not to mention the huge bandwidth hit AT&T’s infrastructure would have to field on its already weary network if it were greenlit. The iPhone carrier subsidies would be in question and barrier of entry to iLand would skyrocket.

    Ultimate browsing experiences are very subjective, and Apple picks their words VERY carefully. Can you have a completely satisfying browsing experience without Flash? Certainly. With sites like YouTube and Vimeo dipping toes into HTML5 for video embedding, what is it that we’re truly missing out on without Adobe Flash? Banner ads giving me seizures? $500,000.00 interactive Flash sites for fortune 500 companies made by high end studios in NYC and LA?

    I’ll take the little blue box.

  63. @Detrus well there is nothing to say really. You think that all of sites on the FWA are a usability nightmare. I consider it to be the most beautiful stuff on the web. We just have different tastes and that’s ok.

    @Tetra just because I have conflicting views and voice them doesn’t mean I’m being defensive. The goal of posts like this is to generate a discussion, not me just posting something and walking away. I would like to think we are all passionate and that we are expressing ourselves. I would buy anyone of the commenters on this blog a beer and continue the debate at the bar.

    @Michael it doesn’t matter if Apple cares or not about web advertising. The fact is that rich media advertising is extremely profitable so it won’t go away. So Apple doesn’t want Flash on there because of 3G bandwidth? That is a new one. First of all, the 3G iPad is just ridiculous anyway. Most people who buy it will already have a data plan on their iPhone. I suspect most will go the wifi route. But if you what you say it is true, then it means that the iPad does NOT provide the ultimate browsing experience. It is limited by the 3G bandwidth right?

  64. @wayne yeah I agree with you about Jobs. I respect him for his convictions and that’s no lie. Again, just because Wayne Dahlberg doesn’t need to use Flash doesn’t mean that is true for everyone else. Why not make it optional? Would someone please tell me the problem with that?

  65. very nice mr lee :)

    Apple is going to get a splash on the face wakeup call pretty soon, am sure.Technology is a open matter now days.Trying to create a monopoly by rejecting acceptance of other technologies, often land you up in trouble. The first “strike” to apple will be Flash cs5 professional.

  66. STORY #1
    Once upon a time there lived a man named Steve. He built a sandbox and let the neighborhood kids come and play quite often. One day a kid down the block came and stole his idea and built his own sandbox which made Steve furious. Steve didn’t want any body else stealing his ideas so he built a 10-foot fence around his sandbox. Day-after-day he fended off neighborhood kids who just wanted to come and play. Steve eventually decided to start selling bags of sand instead. He became very wealthy until he ran out of sand and died. The boy down the street caught a terrible disease and died too.

    The moral of the story: always make sure you play with healthy sand.

    STORY #2
    The next time Steve Jobs returns to the hospital for treatment he will helplessly watch his nurse touch a few buttons on a medical device with a UI developed in Flash by my company. It will save his life, he will put Flash on the iPhone & iPad and everything will be happy fun-time.

  67. hey, i have to admit i’m not comfortable browsing the internet on my ipod and i personally don’t care that much if flash is there. i mean even if it were, that experience is beyound my understanding of “ultimate” mainly due to the small screen size.
    i get tired of pinching and zooming.
    but the ipad is a different thing.
    the thing is almost as big as my laptop and it doesn’t support flash ?!
    ULTIMATE my a$$ !!!
    it fails to impress me.
    better buy yourself a new laptop and experience the ultimate.

  68. Frankly I think the Apple fanboys/girls who actually defend this move are being dense. Even if you love Apple like a child, you should still be able to recognize (and admit) a stupid move when you see one.

    Maybe the only flash you interact with is ads, me, all my ads are blocked and STILL use a lot of Flash. It’s simply part of “browsing”. Fact of the matter is, the iPad only allows for limited browsing.

    Lucky for me, I’ve never been an Apple fangirl, and had no intention on buying one them thingies, so this doesn’t affect me in any way.

    Truthfully, I don’t think this’ll affect Adobe all that much. But I guess we’ll see.

  69. Well, let me suggest something.

    The reason why the Pad does not support Flash is because of the iPhoneOS it is running. And you wont see Flash, Silverlight or etc. hitting the PhoneOS soon. Thats because these technologies allow for the creation of Rich Media/Data applications at a fast pace without selling the end product over the AppStore.

    I am fine with Apple but I think Steve and his company really messed up with the pad. There are Phones out there that already have a 1GHz CPU like the Toshiba TG01. And to say this it with Steves words: Just a bigger display does not make a better device.
    (And buy the way the TG01 is running Flash 10.1, thanks for that Adobe)

    Peter from Germany

  70. Lee knows me from years past, I don’t need to state my history with Flash, but this debate seems to have caught everyone up in it these past 24 hours. Just tonight I was having this same debate with my students in both my Animation and Web Design II classes; however my view of this is a bit different: Flash has an identity problem. No, seriously, hear me out.

    Back in the late 90’s moving from Director to Flash was a no-brainer; Shockwave was fun, but Flash offered a path for clients to add some amazing content. The early to mid 2000’s brought developers terrific new tools and AS 2.0; dynamic sites, interactive games and Flash-enabled ads (shoot the duck win a PS2!) were all the rage. However, in recent years the rise of various JavaScript libraries and now the push towards HTML5 (love it or hate it, XHTML 2.0 is dead; long live HTML5) have begun to replace a lot of Flash’s old turf.

    So now we’re entering 2010, where does Flash fit in?

    Is Flash the tool you want to use to create rich internet applications, or will you take the AJAX route utilizing libraries like jQuery or EXTJS?

    Do you want to make a photo gallery or content carousel using Flash or a small JS plugin?

    Just 3 years ago the above two items would have made most developers respond Flash, but today? And now HTML5’s video tag is becoming popular, so should Flash developers look at this as some sort of fad and howl against the wind that Flash is somehow better? And what if Flash eventually looses that argument (which unfortunately I think it will, but as Lee said it will take some time) where does that leave Flash… gaming.

    So as I stated above, Flash is in the middle of an identity crisis. It’s no longer the only tool that can accomplish interactive tasks or even deliver rich content to users. In some ways I feel today nearly the same as I did in 2002-2003 when I began to leave Director development. It was too costly for clients to pay for multimedia content developed by Director because of all the hot shot Flash gurus with their cheaper software and internet delivery. Now Flash developers are facing free alternatives in many of the various JavaScript libraries and of course the HTML5 spec. I’m not good at predicting the future, but I honestly believe that Flash needs something to properly differentiate itself from the rest of these alternatives, because saying you rock at producing internet games isn’t a solution.

  71. Lee, don’t get me wrong, I am pissed off too, but u shouldn’t throw around the word fan-boy so heavily, you, are clearly the biggest one in the room, and though flash makes me a living, the assumption that the best browsing experience includes it is pretty damn arrogent, flash will be replaced eventually, either by Adobe or somone else.

  72. @Tim the point is that a browser that can’t render a HUGE part of the web is not the ultimate browser experience. No way around that. Sorry but I disagree that Flash will be replaced. It will always provide a richer option than HTML and both will continue to live together. There is room and a need for both.

  73. Thanks everyone for the great discussion everyone. Time to get some sleep. We’ll pick this up tomorrow :)

  74. Great lee!!
    it’s really possible that Flash will die in a few years replace by new technologies, free libraries and whatsoever. BUT NOW Flash sites and RIA are a fact and are, as you stated, a HUGE part of the web so i think it’s not arrogant by you/us to say that iPad is not the ultimate browser experience. On the contrary i believe that is arrogant by Apple cut out this technology and don’t give a damn about it – and about the users..

  75. Have to agree with you Lee – read any of the apple fanboy sites and all the comments on the new iPad claim that HTML5 will replace flash.

    I cannot agree less with this – there is no way HTML5 and its ancillaries could ever replace the rich programming environment that Flash provides.

  76. And again we’re back to Flash vs. HTML5 issue. I don’t understand why is there a vs. between them, but a lot people are only able to see in black or white. Personally, I think it would be great for the \user experience\ Apple is speaking about to have both.

    Now, I’m not sure how cutting one of is a \decision for the people\. It’s like a whole bunch of internet users/web designers/web developers/companies of all kinds just got it wrong for over 10 years, and now mr. Jobs will show them the right path. I think this oversized ego that Apple has developed after the iPod/iPhone success stopped them from being innovative and got them close the Steve’s no. 1 criticized company: Microsoft.

  77. I think Apple continuing eschewing Flash is good news for the Web as a whole. Adobe should Flash die, and concentrate on making great HTML 5 tools for designers.

  78. I’m not sure Apple can utilize Flash until Adobe fixes it. Currently, it is just absolutely so much of a resource pig that they can’t without killing killing their battery life claims… that is, if the iPad doesn’t melt.
    Hopefully, developers will soon realize they should be using other technologies that actually work properly. I’m sure Flash is kind of the current, catch-all, lazy way out… but developers need to start thinking about the user experience before their ease of development.
    Every time I run across Flash content on my MBP, it pisses me off. The other day, I watched a slide-show with audio and it was burning through like 70% CPU utilization… yes, a slide-show with audio. Should have been like 5%.
    I love Photoshop, PDF, etc…. but Adobe has totally blown it with Flash. Either they get their act together, or I hope it dies off.

  79. let’s see… it removes flash content from webpages as you browse them? yep, i’d have to say that’s a definite improvement. Sure, I’ll go with Ultimate.

  80. @ lee
    However, when users start complaining that sites don’t look or work right on their devices, maybe smart developers will make sure they do….. and replace the Flash with something that works.

  81. Flash obviously delivers amazing experiences on the web that can’t be replicated in HTML. So why all the Flash haters? Because HTML developers don’t benefit from Flash one bit.

    So it’s hard to have a rational discussion because of this fact…

  82. Great post Lee. Thanks for generating such a great discussion.

    Personally I think we shouldn’t stop at getting rid of Flash on the internet; why not get rid of all images as well? All we really need is text after all. Anything else is just a distraction.

    All websites should look exactly like

  83. @lee, love this, nice one.
    unfortunately if anything’s going to get a negative reaction on the net it’s slagging off new apple product. Dont listen to them, they’re wrong. It’s crap.

    Hope adobe dont over-react and ask you to cut this page cos i think it’s genius.

  84. Adobe. MAKE FASH STABLE ON THE MAC THEN. Stop whining and do something about your shoddy software! The fix is so very simpe…

  85. Don’t play this game with Apple, they could just buy Adobe and kill Flash ;)
    Maybe they will support Silverlight on the iPhone/iPad, who knows ? ;)

  86. I’d like Adobe to just concentrate on making Flash a better authoring tool rather than a ubiquitous video delivery platform. A tool that can compile interactive/game projects to a range of formats for a range of hardware. Maybe the upcoming app compiler will be a step in the right direction.

    Naive? Probably.

    I shan’t be buying an iPad because you can’t do much with it other than consume Apple approved media. Not because it lacks Flash. I’d probably drop it and break it on the first day.

    Still, thanks for an interesting discussion.

  87. Hi Lee,

    I have been a web developer for a few years a while ago (before most of the Media/interactive contents).
    Now, I am a mac user, have an iPhone and will very certainly buy an iPad, with or without flash support.

    I have mixed feelings about Flash, probably due to the fact that:
    – Most of the flash I see are ads, so they are are removed with adblockers and clicktoflash
    – I’m old fashioned in the sense that I go on the web to find information and everything distracting me from it is an interference (god, I feel like an old jerk here – I’m only 38)
    – It’s acting terribly on my MacBook Pro

    My view is that it is a communication issue and lack of efforts from all parts, both Adobe and Apple. I have a super cool MacBook Pro with which I do development, Photoshop, Final Cut and everything I need to (my main machine) and a simple Flash website or big movie can almost bring it to a halt.

    So, as a user/customer, a normal reaction is: It works fine on Windows, it’s almost killing my super duper Macbook Pro, so what can I expect on an iPhone or iPad? First, fix it for the mac and then we shall see. I am pretty confident there would be much more support from the mac community if it was working on our machines first :)

    Now, I have read recently that Adobe blames Apple and mac OS X for the performances (or lack of) on Max OS X. I have read the opposite on several websites. Who are we users to see who is right? probably somewhere in the middle?

    Please don’t answer I’m a brainless fanboy or something similar, I’m trying to be constructive and explain what I (and probably many other people) feel :)

  88. yeah man, “ultimate browsing experience” *lol*.
    APPLE VS. FLASH, i hope, there will be an agreement in the near future!

  89. The simple fact is that Flash is dead, and it was killed by Adobe’s own incompetence.

    Refusing to create an open standard for Flash. Publish the spec and license patents cheaply, and maybe you’ll be tolerated; but we all know that will never happen, because you don’t want anyone making a better Flash runtime.

    Refusal or incompetence to make Flash perform even marginally well on Mac. Blaming Apple for this is obvious bullshit, since HTML5 video works fine, you could use the exact same Quicktime APIs.

    Promotion of Flash as a tool for annoying ads. People don’t like moving ads on web pages, that’s why anyone who knows about it installs ClickToFlash or other ad blockers. Your primary business model is spamming, and everyone hates spammers.

    Refusal or incompetence to make modern, native UIs (both look AND feel, not just aping the Aqua button colors). Mac users hate Flash, because it looks like Windows.

    Worst of all is Adobe’s institutional inability to admit to their mistakes. Nothing is ever Adobe’s fault, it’s always someone else.

    HTML5 video is already replacing you, first on YouTube and Vimeo, next everywhere else. What will you say when Hulu switches to H.264?

    HTML5 and native applications make your “interactive” click-the-monkey apps irrelevant. Apple leads the way on web development, always has, and you’re not part of that future.

    I used to use and like Adobe products, but you haven’t made anything but junk in 10 years.

  90. If HTML is the heart of Internet, Flash is like the veins. Without flash, this gadget would be a garbage.

  91. It appears the reason the IPad and IPhone not running flash, is that Adobe is unable to produce a plugin efficient enough to work on mobile devices. Honestly, it does not sound too far fetched, once you’ve had a look at the sourcecode for Advanced Datagrid…

  92. Very nice discussion. My point of view is simply this: Apple is Closed!
    M$ only bundled IE on their Os with the option of users installing Netscape and they were taken to court. Here, you don’t even have an option to install any other browser aside Safari; No Mozilla Mobile, No Opera Mobile… You simply use what Jobs tells you to use. So the ideology here is not about whether flash or no flash, there are several other technologies that have been banned by Jobs.

    Regarding optimizing Flash player for OS X, I think the issue has to do with utilizing the CPU to do some hardware acceleration. I write low level assembly and understand what it means being shielded off that level.

    Also regarding the sites with CPU running very high, I think much of that has to do with the developers and I believe Adobe should come in on this. On their part, they should encourage good coding practices; time is over for those amateur developers who just draw on the canvas and copy / paste codes without knowing its implications. I recently developed a site in Flex, Full Flex site and I did everything I can to make sure CPU usage is minimal, as much as memory. A user wrote me and said this is the first Flex site he will use that does not run the CPU and I looked back at my time and effort… it paid off. There are some few tutorials on teaching how to do this, I think Adobe should encourage this and take it as a campaign. Beside, Adobe should also encourage the strict coding practices employed in Flex into Flash as well. Defining return variables is optional in Flash, whereas a compile error is thrown if it’s in Flex. These and many more helps optimize the app for better performance and should be encouraged.

    In essence, I really don’t blame the player for CPU or memory hogging, I blame the developer because I know a full Flex app can run yet with the CPU silent and memory consumption low.

  93. If this is, ahem, “our most advanced technology, in a revolutionary and magical device” – then apple have some problems.

    ‘magical’ FFS… this blog post is magical, the i-pad is just a very cynical attempt to change our expectations of what the web should be.

  94. @Flash Team

    At least I hope that you have a Flash plugin ready for the iPhone OS fully optimized to play all Flash animations and movies (including 1080p) smoothly even in fullscreen mode (1024×768 for the iPad).

    Because if not, I would tell that bashing Apple for not putting Flash on the iPad while you don’t have a properly working (by working I mean optimized so that it doesn’t use to much resources and save battery life) Flash plugin to show them so that they can be convinced to add Flash to the iPad, that’s pretty useless.

    As far as I know, in the business world, it’s the product creator (Adobe (YOU) in the case of Flash) that have to convince the customer (Apple in this case) that its product is good and should be used by the customer, not the contrary.

    Since the beginning of this story I haven’t seen any video of a Flash plugin on Safari Mobile working smoothly without eating too much power. The Flash games we can find on the App Store developed using CS 5 beta, are clearly not convincing in term of power consumption and software optimization, and if it’s what you presented to Apple so far, than I perfectly understand why they still didn’t include Flash on the iPhone, as I wouldn’t have included myself if I were a smartphone.

  95. WIN!!
    and fuck apple for not understanding their costumers..
    That iPad is noting but an oversized iPhone. Almost no new features, just a tiny bit larger.
    Looks pretty much worthless to me

  96. Im a huge Apple fan and I used to be an ActionScript Developer since the first Day Macromedia Introduced it. But I truly think that Apple made a huge mistake with their iPad closeness and I also think that the Flash platform must Die! Viva open standards!

  97. lee, your arguments that the flash performance on Mac sucks because Apple is not cooperating is ridiculous. What kind of cooperation do you need? You have all the API available that any other applications have and guess what, they don’t burn a hole in my desk every time they try to show an animation.

    You have Quartz, Quartz 2D, Open GL, Core Video, Core Animation to your disposition. So complaining about Apple not being cooperative sounds very unconvincing. Maybe you can be little more specific?

  98. @Sean Foushee

    I am fulltime web developer using JS (AJAX), PHP, Java, ActionScript3 etc. And I can tell you creating a complex RIA with a JS frontend is not much fun. You end up seeing a different result in nearly every different browser you test you app in. We are selling an online project data management system that is based on PHP and using AJAX/JS frontend.

    The development of the current version took about 1 1/2 years just because it’s so hard to get a consistent look cross browser with AJAX. Just for a prototype (v3) I created a flash version of the frontend based on the current PHP backend. This was done in about 2 months work and the result was cross browser consistent, rock solid stable and much much faster than the AJAX version.

    JS and AJAX are fine if you just want to tweak things but to much script screws up the most common browsers. In special FF is eating up memory in MB chunks when handling a lot of JS.

    Just to mention that: Yes I am not blind. When browsing the web I also see a lot of messy Flash based ads that are eating up memory for no effect and yes I hate that too.
    But a well written Flash app does not do that.
    There are also hundred thousands of sites with bad JS and Java apps on it that screws up your system on the first click.

    Java, JS, AS3 and so on are just tools the question is how people nail with it. And unfortunately not everyone is a good craftsman.

    Flash as every technology has its pros and cons and it’s not perfect (also like every other technology). That in mind as stated by Lee as a lot of times you should not use Flash for everything. As I mentioned in my earlier post it is great for developing on a fast pace cross browser compatible and of course if you are thinking about also bringing the app on the desktop.

    This debate is not about Flash against HTML5 or AJAX.
    It’s just when I buy a system from the big A for 499$ and its main use is to browse the web I want to see all the contents the Internet has to offer and not just 90%.

    This is a thing everybody has to decide for its own.

    I am going to buy me a tablet pretty soon but it is not going to be the iPad because I personally do not like the idea of paying 499$ for a browsing device and then see blue bricks on every 3rd site I want to visit.

    Peter from Germany

  99. What the hell is wrong with “the porn angle”. The demand is huge and so far flash is the best technology to supply. I don’t say this because I am a fan, it is simply the delivery platform used by 100% of porn mongers.

    @sean there’s nothing “free” about JavaScript libraries, I’m a flash professional and the other day it took me a day to code an effect in Script.aculous that I would have farted out in Flash in a second. A JavaScript professional would have found the reverse. Who cares what the hell we use as long as it is accessible and POPS.

  100. Well………….

    After hearing about this, im not sure whether i still wanna buy this………………….. );

  101. I’ve an eight core MacPro with 10gb of ram that chokes on full screen flash video. Who can blame Apple for not wanting to use a technology that would put their hardware in a bad light? Why is it Apple’s responsibility to make your product not run like a dog in it’s browser/OS?

  102. yeaahhh ! :-)
    nice post !

    sean (comment 92), your demonstration is interesting but it doesn’t explain why apple refuses flash player on iphone/ipad !!

    for me, the only reason is MONEY and CONTROL !
    apple wants that all games/app/… (free or not) use appStore to earn MONEY and keep CONTROL !
    Apple see flash player like a trojan in their operating model / business plan !
    An evidence is that CS5 include export for iphone BUT using appStore !

    And last reason is simply that apple is a fucking SECT !

  103. The only thing Flash is/was useful for is media. Now that HTML5 is out, Flash is no longer needed for that. Open web standards are good for everyone, except for providers of the proprietary options. Like it or not, Flash (and hopefully Silverlight) has has been shown the door. It was only a matter of time.

  104. Shame on all these sites that don’t have non-flash alternative content – at least have a holding image!?

    Apple can hide behind the fact that Flash is not an open standard

  105. I’m not an Apple fan but I tend to disagree with this campaign of Flash support.

    Clearly, this is a platform war. The Apple platform versus the Flash platform. But in this case I’ll be with Apple because their platform is the pure browser, standard, open HTML5 with XML-SVG and JavaScript – which all sum an open platform as exciting and beautiful as the proprietary Flash.

    Flash is proprietary, bad for SEO, bad for the semantic web, bad for deep linking, good only for lazy web developers.

    The only thing Flash is still useful is for playing streamed MP4+H.264 video. Nothing else.



    In the Steve’s presentation, he enter in The New York Times web site as an Example of “BEST WEB EXPERIENCE”, and in the page, a plugin of Flash is requested… Steve leaves the page as soon as possible and not say anything about it…


    Here is the video… This happens on 05:30!

  107. What if Adobe stroke back and released the next Creative Suite for Windows only? I’d laugh my a** off and all designers would sell their Macs on Ebay. Goodbye Mac! :D

  108. omg omg ! No flash ? wtf ? Herrr in fact I hate flash and will enjoy the blue logo as a “not disturb please” sign on browser. Flash is crap.

  109. great post.

    surely the iPad can’t be the greatest browsing experience when so much great content is delivered with Flash. Movie promo sites, car promo sites, photographers, artists, fashion, galleries, games are all primarily Flash. Yes there is JQuery or mootools and now HTML5 but they are following where Flash led. I even heard AJAX only arose because of Flash-based booking systems. Without Flash maybe we’d all still be only clicking blue underlined text links.

    If we want Flash to remain then its up to us, the Flash community, to work hard to continue to produce the best stuff on the web and for Adobe to continue pushing the platform and solve the problems that put people off it. The competition should be healthy and improve the internet for all of us end-users and creators regardless of platform.

    If Flash CS5 allows iPhone apps to be created then I guess they will run on an iPad, so I guess there will be elbow room for Flash on these Apple devices even without it on the browser.

    I’m undecided on the iPad. It has great potential (as all the sci-fi movies keep showing us!) but I have been put off an iPhone because it doesn’t have Flash and so couldn’t show anyone any of my work so the iPad has the same gripe. If it ran a decent version of OSX rather than iPhoneOS then it would have been better from my perspective. I have a feeling that this is more about another platform for distributing the apps which have been a huge success and made lots of money too. The iPad is for causal browsing and fun not work. But maybe its a testbed for a new touchscreen iMac in the future?

  110. @lee It all depends on your perspective as to whether or not the iPad is a better web browsing experience without Flash. From my perspective, not having Flash is a better web. Flash is just too inefficient, it’s bad enough on a full blown computer, so I definitely don’t want it using up precious CPU cycles, memory and battery power on a mobile device with limited resources.

    I would say your time would be better spent on making Flash 10.1 as efficient as possible rather than making silly pictures and whinging about Apple. Maybe then, if you can get the CPU usage down to the same level I am seeing on YouTube with the HTML 5 beta, you might change peoples’ minds.

  111. It is truly amazing to me how dense many people are….

    I truly agree with you lee. If the browsing experience doesn’t include FlashPlayer, Silverlight, JavaFX, Java Applets, Unity3D, etc… it is not an ideal browsing experience, and it is not the “real” internet.

    As for HTML5:
    HTML5 is rising in ubiquity. True.
    Internet Explorer does not support HTML5. True.
    Internet Explorer has the majority of browser users by a wide margin. True.
    HTML5 cannot work until 1 of 2 things happens: Microsoft adopts it into IE, OR, the vast majority of users move to other browsers. True.

    As for HTML5 video vs Flash video:
    Firefox supports H.264: False.
    IE supports the video tag: False.

    There ya have it. Enough said. The 2 biggest browsers don’t support the same standards that make HTML5 great. Until they do, HTML5 is a cool trinket that some few special kids get to play with, but the majority do not even know about.

  112. > I don’t know enough about the Ipad, but why wouldn’t they support Flash?

    As mentioned by others above, strategic reasons:

    They’re trying to lay the smackdown on Adobe.

    > the real story is that Apple does not want people to visit any site that might cause a lack of revenue in the app store

    Maybe, but they run the iTunes Store at a bit over break-even level. As John Gruber mentioned above, it’s probably more strategic. They want to control all the core software on the iPhone and iPad. They’ve added a lot of HTML5 features to Safari that enable people to write great web apps that completely bypass the App Store.

    They really don’t seem anti-web, just anti-Flash.

    > I’m getting real sick of Apple’s arrogance with the Flash Player. How long can they keep up this stupid mentality??

    Let’s see.

    iPhone sales
    2009 Q2: 3.79m
    2009 Q3: 5.20m
    2009 Q4: 7.36m
    2010 Q1: 8.73m

    Add sales of iPod Touches and the iPad, and I reckon quite some time.

    > the iphone user, for example, is just wasting money by not being able to choose from all that great content Flash platform is able to deliver.

    Oh noes, no Farmville on iFone!

  113. Millons of people have their browser crash while watching youtube and hulu videos and to blame is the resouce hog flash player. I know from experince as it has crashed in the middle of a youtube video or even in the middle of a movie on hulu (have to wait for it to buffer again) (I have had this happen 100’s of times on my mac) Who wants to use a plug-in that is a cpu hog, (it has made my cpu hit over 230 degrees f (yes both fans going at 6000 rpm)

    Also I have noticed hardly anyone updates flash player (I have seen people ignore the update on Windows) The update screen is not user friendly.

    I would say web standards are way much better than flash, you have HTML5 and CSS3

  114. This is THE VERY BEST thing the iPad has got: Not to use Flash!
    Please, World Wide Web, get rid of this lousy technology and use HTML5.

  115. @lee

    This things come and go and i think in a year or two we will all laugh at all this nonsense about Apple and their new closed OS.

    And this thing about HTML5 and Flash, i really dont get it. Imagine what the web would look like without Flash? How would one build that cool application or website that client wanted? My company does both Flash Platform and HTML/CSS/Javascript projects, and i can NOT imagine 60% of our projects in Javascript, because they simply would NOT be possible to make.

    I think most people in “against Flash” camp are just people that are simply afraid or dont have the skill to learn some real OOP programing language or some more complex platform then HTML/CSS/Jquery.

    Another thing, i also dont get why Adobe wont make some kind of agreament with browser vendors and ask them to include Flash Player inside the browser. I talked to some Adobe people about this and the only reason is download size, but today we all have 2+ MBit links to internet. If that would happen one day, FP would become the standard.

    my 2 cents.

  116. I am going to by an iPad because I wanted a nook, but would like to surf SOME of the web as well.

    BUT this is brilliant! Adobe needs to make this a marketing campaign.


  117. Apple is an idiot. Why dont they let me decide how I will spend my batterypower ? Instead they want to protect me against my will.


    Also BBC iPlayer works on iPhone, why doesn’t Hulu

  119. Lee, you’re right, I do have flash on my site for charts. I haven’t really looked for anything else to replace it because it works and it’s just a fun site that I don’t make any money on (meaning I don’t want to spend days / weeks doing a new chart setup at this time).

    I understand flash has it’s place now and I’m glad it existed as there was nothing else, but now most things can be done with HTML5 + CSS + Javascript. Also, when I say flash is going away, I mean from the mainstream…it will still have it’s uses I’m sure.

    Oh, and now someone wrote some javascript code that allows the iPhone to run SWF files, so all is not lost!

  120. Being a Flex developer I would love to see Flash on the iPad, but I also would love to have Flash run well on Mac OS X as well.
    Take a look at the disney site running twice on the same machine (a dual-quad core Xeon), once under VMFusion/XP/Chrome/Flash and once under Safari/Flash:

    Fusion is running at 1,3% CPU utilization and Safari at 94,3%! Both playing video etc.
    Care to explain that?

  121. This is a fascinating experiment Steve Jobs has initiated….

    Can one technology company be so much better than all of the others that they get to tailor the Web in a way to maximize their profits? You can’t blame Jobs – he’s just a capitalist. We can only blame ourselves if we let him get away with it.

    Flashers who say you’re going to buy the iPad anyway… even though the product wants to take away what I would hope you think is an important aspect of the Web… You get what you deserve…

  122. Phew! Thank god for HTML5 I guess.

    At least I’ll be able to use standards-based, accessible and usable websites on my iPad.

  123. It really is a stupid product:

    – no flash
    – no multitasking !
    – no camera
    – no ports (USB, firewire or whatever)
    – no phone
    – no e-inkt
    – no additional browsers ( only software from the Apple store)
    – there is no market for Tablet PC’s..
    – Fujitsu claims the name iPad, because they already sell Fujitsu iPads
    – Wont fit in my pocket. It’s big and has no cool extra’s. So why shouldn’t I take my laptop with me instead ?

    The iPad is going to be Apple’s and the world’s first rumor inspired
    product, that should have stayed a rumor.

  124. I have no problem with the fact that my iPhone has no flash support (I use the safari browser really rare and only when I desperate need it ), still I wouldn’t buy this iPad because as an user I aspect this to replace my notebook, but it fails to do so (it is slower, has no flash support, no java support and it’s not even that small to make a difference). Why would I buy it? Exactly, I wouldn’t.

    As for the blue legos, I think that they are already used with it from the iPhone experience, I sure am.

  125. I’ve had both Firefox and Safari crash repeatedly today… each time it was in Flash.

    I like that iPhone doesn’t crash.

    Maybe if Adobe got around to debugging Flash, Apple might be more amenable to including it in iPhone and iPad.

    OTOH, I’m sure it’s better for Adobe to pay people to complain about Apple’s cooperation instead of actually fixing the bugs… heh.

  126. There’s something very ironic about someone who’s job title contains the word “evangelist” throwing around the phrase “fan boy” quite so much.

    Lee – if you think that a way to engage a major partner of Adobe’s is to insult them, their strategy and products and ignite a flame war with their most vocal customers, you need to re-evaluate your career choices.

    Unless of course your position represents Adobe’s thinking, too… in which case, it’s kind-of understandable why Apple may not give two figs for Flash.

  127. @Justin —

    “full of security bugs”

    [citation needed]

    This gets bandied about frequently by the who-needs-Flash crowd, but I don’t get it… I’ve heard of plenty of attacks that used, say, Internet Explorer (e.g., the china-vs-google attacks last month), but haven’t heard of any attributed to Flash. Perhaps you can direct me towards this information? If Flash is indeed “full of security bugs” then surely there’s documentation on this somewhere…

  128. Very sorry, but the reality is, if you can’t surf Porn on it, it’s not going to sell. Debate amongst yourselves what that says about our society, etc, but the bottom line is that consumers don’t like being told “you can’t”, and that’s what Apple is saying.

  129. @Dan Your point of view is naive, exactly the type of user that Apple needs and wants, you are. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the developer who did the sites you crashed on didn’t know how to use Flash? That maybe Adobe has nothing to do with it? Do you watch youtube? Do you like watching videos over the internet? Because, you know, most of them are via flash platform. Stop being so ignorant, no one paid me or anyone here to say what they think.

  130. Wouldn’t the easiest way to change Apple’s mind is to write a version of flash that doesn’t suck donkey balls? I mean you complain about not being on the iPhone or iPad, but when you’re the number one cause of crashes on the Mac, you hog huge amounts of resources for simple tasks and you are completely inaccessible to disabled users, it isn’t a wonder that Apple doesn’t want you on the iPhone or iPad.

    Try fixing Flash on the Mac and showing that Adobe is capable of producing an efficient, accessible and crash resistant version of Flash for OS X and then Apple might take notice.

  131. Gotta love how lee conveniently disregarded 90% of Detrus’ post – ie: \Adobe is a monopoly\

    Kinda killed the whole thing for me right there.

  132. “Dan”, you shouldn’t be crashing. Your mention of iPhone implies you might be on a Mac? It’s pretty straightforward to troubleshoot these, but requires some forking steps depending on diagnostics… there are technotes, but I’d like to write an up-to-date blogpost.

    Short version: If you’re crashing consistently on one page, in the current version of Player, first clear the cache to get rid of any potentially damaged contents. But if you’re crashing during an intensive browsing session, beef up your machine, or reduce the media load through an ad-blocker. A Flash-blocker is also useful for managing background loads on an older machine, but in my experience Mac browsers regularly have problems even so.


  133. I totaly agree with your screenshots, and hope some day Apple will stop being greedy and allow Flash content on their systems :(

    Also, I bet you wouldn’t have posted this if you worked for Apple, instead of Adobe :))

  134. @Martin: “you are completely inaccessible to disabled users”

    Incorrect. Flash is accessible to aural browsers, of course you need to take steps to work with products such as JAWS for example, but that’s exactly the same situation for HTML based sites. I’m really only aware of this because accessibility is a requirement for the products my company releases.

  135. Make a flash player that is less resource intensive and won’t crash the desktop version constantly and maybe apple will open up a bit.

  136. Apple is not barring flash to “protect app store profits”. The App Store and iTunes in general barely make money for Apple. Apple offers these services to sell devices. Most apps on the App Store are FREE!!

    Apple doesn’t allow flash on these devices because flash is a buggy resource hog. Turn off flash in your browser. See how much less momory and resources having a few open tabs takes. Imagine the effect on battery life and memory on these mobile deviced

    Let’s not forget, flash is a proprietary, closed format championed by Adobe. Flash is not the future, Flash is not open source. People bitch about Apple being closed and proprietary, and they deplore Apple to solve this by adding support for another closed, proprietary system??

    HTML5, CSS3, the days of flash are numbered. Why do you think Adobe is pushing so hard to keep Flash relevant? Because flash is becoming obsolete every day.

  137. Take down the porn example, and I can show this to my kids who want to play their flash games on the pad. Otherwise they’ll keep asking for this crappy coaster.

  138. Its pretty sad how many people get upset over the Bang Bros pic… Who cares. Stop acting like you have never watched porn.

    Besides that, awesome post.

  139. The hell did all flash haters come from??

    Also Lee you are awesome for using Bang Bros as an example of the ubiquity of flash on the internet.

  140. Yeah, well, for those of us who run the Flashblock plugin so our machines don’t get p0wned and our browsers don’t crash, it’s no loss to us.

    Weirdly, Apple & Adobe are following the same pathetic trajectory. They used to be a great companies. Now they’re so fixated on controlling the “user experience” that they’ve tossed QA, and are selling crap. It’s sad, really.

  141. @Martin… did you even bother to read previous posts? Apple isn’t giving Adobe the low level access they need to make improvements to the player. That’s like telling someone to fix your poorly running car without opening the hood. Keep up.

  142. lee wrote: “Maybe we should make everything static. Please tell me.”

    OK, I stopped reading when I got to this one.

    Suggesting that the only two options are Flash or a static web is beyond asinine.

  143. F@#$ flash. HTML5 is where it’s at. Flash is clumsy, resource intensive and antiquated.

  144. @ Alexander Rindo –
    “The hell did all flash haters come from??”

    From sitting over their roasting CPUs too long….
    The sad thing is that if Flash worked in a half-way descent way, you’d have seen the opposite outcry of pissed Apple users demanding Apple support Flash.

    The ball is in Adobe’s court here. They can either be stupid, excluding millions and millions of users, which will eventually force developers to find alternative that actually work (and don’t forget… if a few of the big sites change, it’s over for Flash). Or, they could fix Flash so that we don’t care if it is used as a container or not (99% of any ‘web experience’ Flash seems to be video and slide-show delivery… and is easily replaced).

  145. @ Dan –
    “Apple isn’t giving Adobe the low level access they need to make improvements to the player.”

    Baloney. So does Adobe also lack low level access to OSX? That excuse for the iPhone is exactly that, an excuse.

  146. Heh, I did notice the blue lego during the keynote that introduced the device. Steve was quick to get off that page though. Nice move! I did something similar during a demo that bugged :)

    Although I occasionally do Flash development myself, I’m not too upset about it not being supported on mobile devices. You can have a great browsing experience without it.

  147. *@iPadFriend let me say this as clear as I can: APPLE DOES NOT WANT THE FLASH PLAYER TO PERFORM WELL. They don’t want you to go to Hulu or play Flash games because they worry that you won’t buy their apps. We have been trying to work with Apple since the iPhone came out.*

    ok lee but does it make sense that flash cs5 has iphone support? wouldn’t it be better to concentrate more on google’s nexus one for example ? Flash CS5 and an Nexus One SDK that is what i would like to have:-)!

  148. Sean Schraeder and others make some decent points re: alternate reasons as to why apple has not yet supported flash on the iphone browser. I’ve heard about resource issues with the Flash plug-in from various blogs and from users.

    If apple prime motive was greed then wouldn’t they also disallow the creation of apps via Flash CS5?

    I like apple products and I like adobe products. I’ve shelled out a lot of cash for both. I doubt either company is completely blameless in getting the flash plugin over to the iphone.

    I don’t agree that Flash is on it’s way out tho’. I enjoy using and developing flash websites and hope to see it better supported on OSX by both Adobe and Apple.

    @ John Dowell PC or Linux browsers never experience problems? They always run the flash content trouble free?

  149. Great post! It brightened my day. I have an iphone and while I wish it had flash I’m not going to stop using it because it doesn’t. However, I will not buy an ipad as long as it doesn’t support flash.

    The ipad (awful name) does not need to make the same compromises as the iphone. They could have put the real OSX operating system on it. They chose to put the iphone OS on the ipad for monetary reasons. They already had this huge money making app store and wanted to leverage that in another device. Simple as that.

    On another note, I run a site that, in my experience, couldn’t be done without flash, ok, maybe just not as well. I’ve also put a lot of time into developing with flash and actionscript over the years and I’m supposed to create alternate versions of everything in something like HTML5 (totally new and limited in distribution) just because people like apple arbitrarily restrict their user experience? I don’t have the time and resources to work like that.

    Also, I frequently use sites like hulu, grooveshark, purevolume, picnik, etc. All of which use flash heavily, and very well.

    IDEA! Maybe Adobe could get into the hardware business and release a tablet that could leverage the entire AIR platform, eh? You could even have USB on it. How cool would that be? Not like they don’t have the resources.

    Keep up the great work Lee.

  150. I think you should change your graphic to

    While I’m skeptical that Apple is somehow making it completely impossible for Flash to play video without hogging my entire CPU, fine. That still doesn’t excuse the horrible instability displayed by Flash and every other Adobe app. The iPad and iPhone are consumer electronics devices that people expect to Just Work, not constantly lock up because Adobe has cared more about marketing than technology for the past decade.

  151. Is desperation really the look Adobe is going for this season?

    Let’s take these one by one.

    FarmVille: A freemium social network-based game. Aka: stealth charging, stealth marketing, stealth exploitation of personal data. The subject of a class action lawsuit over misleading revenue generation schemes. I’m missing it so much already.

    Hulu: Doesn’t work in my country. By the time they roll it out here, they’ll have figured out a non-Flash option, like YouTube. YouTube is a revelation on iPhone: much the best platform.

    CNN: Meh. BBC supports iPhone.

    Bang Bros: Lee, you know how there’s a time and a place for everything? Actually there isn’t one for this.

    FWA: True, doesn’t work on my iPhone. Not working on my Mac either. Struggling to see the point of it.

    Addicting Games: Mostly not addicting (or even addictive), just crap. Since they’re Flash, they run at random speeds depending on what computer you’re using. Bad UX. Apple hates that. So do I. Give me apps any day. (Or even charge me a quid for them.)

    Google Finance: What was I going to watch there, Adobe stock falling?

    Aviary: OK, they built their entire business on writing apps in Flash. Good luck with that. Now let’s see you run an iPhone app on a PC. Not working? Well, I’ve got something you can’t get, too.

    Disney/SpongeBob: Like YouTube, I’m sure they’ll find a way to serve iPhone/Pod/Pad users pretty soon. For some reason it’s in the back of my mind that some people at Disney might know some people at Apple.

    Any more lame things I can’t do without Flash (until they get ported)?

    Oh, hi Conrad.

    > @Conrad Winchester
    > I work in the online gambling industry

    Gambling and pornography – Adobe’s new core market! Sorry, go on.

    > and without flash we would have no mechanism for delivering our content.

    Really? Really really really really? No mechanism at all?

    > The ONLY problems we ever see are Javascript problems and incompatiblities between browsers – IE and Firefox being hands down worst culprits (Webkit rules :-)

    > For all you people who think HTML5 and Javascript will replace Flash, I say bring it on – Go on write a rich, entertaining and secure online gambling game in JQuery that works in IE7

    Let’s do some joined-up thinking here. It’s hard to write non-Flash interactive content that works in IE7. But there’s this thing called WebKit that works fine. In fact, better than fine. It “rules”.

    Now, if only this useless non-Flash-supporting iPad piece of crap had a browser based on WebKit, there’d be an obvious solution, but since that’s never going to happ… oh.

    Flash as universal platform was a lovely idea, but things didn’t work out that way. Let’s move on, Adobe! I thought you gambling and porn companies were supposed to be ahead of the curve?

  152. OK, I make my living as a Flex developer, and I have to say it annoys me that Apple does not allow a Flash plugin for Mobile Safari. That said, I now wonder about how much Flash apps would really affect the profitability of the App Store. I could see AIR making inroads, but I don’t think most web-based flash implementations are a threat to app store content. The power of the app store is that most of its apps sell for what amounts to a micro-payment — people don’t have to hand-wring over whether they can afford one app or another. I don’t think people would bypass a nifty app store product just because there might be something similar available online for free. (OK, it will have some effect, but these are edge cases.)

    I suspect they don’t like how Flash affects the browsing experience, and they want to play up HTML5. I think performance was an issue on the iPhone, but that it wouldn’t be on the iPad. My two cents.

  153. @ Alexander Rindo –
    “The hell did all flash haters come from??”

    Probably the most telling inquiry of the whole damn snafu.

  154. Wow Lee, you’ve struck a nerve! Just my two cents here.
    First you will never be able create deep, dynamic, flash interactive type pieces with html5. Don’t even bring up that argument. Even though open source html5 video is just being fleshed out, browsers are already breaking camps on how it should be done. It’s not unified as it should be. Every example that I’ve seen so far works horribly. Please, show me web based video that plays and loads as fast and as well as flash video…. Exactly. There’s a reason why everyone uses flash video.
    Without flash the web is an electric magazine. A slideshow on your tv.

  155. I don’t frequent many sites that require Flash, but it seems silly for the iPad to not support it.
    I suspect it has nothing at all to do with the capabilities of the device.

  156. I have a slightly different take on the need for Flash in any device.

    I am currently working with publishers, design firms, and advertisers on creating “Rich Media” documents. This can be magazines, newspapers, books, brochures, booklets, sales sheets, or any other type of document that is enhanced with rich media content.

    The rich media content can be animations of text (such as a PowerPoint presentation), movies, sounds, rollovers, etc.

    These rich media documents can be distributed as PDF or SWF files.

    The PDF files use the Flash Payer to play the rich media content. The SWF files obviously do also.

    What we were hoping would be that the iPad would allow us to distribute these rich media files through web sites. The files would then play on the iPad.

    For instance, we could distribute a set of recipes that would be primarily print, but would have rich media FLV movies to illustrate those steps that need better explanation.

    Companies should not have to go through a third-party application (iTunes or iBooks) to distribute these products.

    And there is a reasonable expectation that the device will run the Flash player.

    We have been hoping that eventually the books sold for the Kindle, Nook, and now the iPad would allow this more engaging multi-media experience.

    It’s not a book. It’s not a video. It’s not a web page. It’s Rich Media.

    Cutting off the Flash experience limits the development.

    By focusing just on Flash in the browser or HTML 5.0, developers are looking at too narrow a world.

  157. @Isaac: “In essence, I really don’t blame the player for CPU or memory hogging, I blame the developer because I know a full Flex app can run yet with the CPU silent and memory consumption low.”

    Amen. I could write a JavaScript that would crash your browser in 10 seconds.

  158. Not my website, but here is a petition that was started for this exact reason. Go there and sign it, if you think Apple should add Flash to its devices.

    Also, apparently Apple has screwed up and has some images on their site showing Flash running on the iPad.

    Now, for my $0.02, why not put Flash on the Apple devices? You could always disable it if you were such an Apple fanboy and Steve told you to, but for MOST of the worl that does not live to Steve’s ever beck and call, we would just like to see a HUGE number of websites that have it on it. They are already out there, clients demand Flash all the time, so why not show it.

    The ONLY reason Jobs doesn’t want to put Flash on any of its devices, and it has nothing to do with the App Stores, is simply because it is a great idea brought out many years ago, flourishing on the Internet, AND that Apple didn’t come out with it themselves.

    That is what it comes down to, it is not an Apple product… to say that using a proprietary piece of software (the Flash runtime) on a website is against what Apple sees as an “open Internet” is completely BS…. they have Quicktime for heaven’s sake…. and they tried to make it the default standard for videos on the Internet, that REQUIRED to have the Quicktime runtime, ohhh and what about music on your iPod or iPhone, yup, REQUIRES iTunes.

    This is all about a poor man, who didn’t win 1 of his wars, getting his plugin as the standard on the Internet. Most Flash developers won’t even know this, but earlier versions of Quicktime (before Flash MX came out) actually allowed you to embed Flash inside it… Apple wanted to take over the web plugin standard with Quicktime… and LOST.

    This is why Apple won’t allow Flash on its devices, Flash is simply not their product/idea and they are sore losers about it. Saying it is proprietary, and people shouldn’t HAVE to have it to view websites is completely BS and goes 100% against what Apple’s philosophy is on its very own products.

  159. Great post, Lee. I couldn’t agree with you more. I was very excited about the iPad…until that blue Lego popped up during the presentation. Ugh. I won’t be getting it now. (Plus, no multitasking?)

    People who think HTML5 will supplant Flash are dreaming. It’s like saying we’re all going to give up our flat-screen HDTV’s and go back to square boxes in our living-rooms.

    P.S. The Bang Bros’ site is a nice touch. Very funny (and true), as well.

  160. I’ve had ClickToFlash installed for many months now, and I agree. Blue legos are horrible. I’d much rather just have a hole where the Flash used to be.

    But I definitely prefer blue legos to actual Flash, and I’m really glad Apple didn’t cave on this. Flash really deserves extinction.

  161. @Craig it runs at 105% CPU on my Mac. No offense to the developer either. It is a nice site. But it’s nothing that you couldn’t do in Flash 8.

  162. @Dom “Incorrect. Flash is accessible to aural browsers, of course you need to take steps to work with products such as JAWS for example, but that’s exactly the same situation for HTML based sites. I’m really only aware of this because accessibility is a requirement for the products my company releases.”

    Mac OS X comes with a built in screen reader. All Flash content on the web is completely inaccessible to it. Is this the fault of Apple? No. Apple provides the screen reader, they provide very good APIs to make your own product accessible. Adobe however chooses not to use them, thus making Flash completely inaccessible on the Mac.

    @Dan: “did you even bother to read previous posts? Apple isn’t giving Adobe the low level access they need to make improvements to the player. That’s like telling someone to fix your poorly running car without opening the hood. Keep up.”

    Yes. But the question I have is what low level access is Apple withholding? You can talk to the CPU just fine, going all the way down to assembly. You can send stuff to the graphics card. Hell, in 10.6 it is quite easy to push general processing to the graphics card. Adobe can complain all they like, but there are plenty of APIs on the Mac that would let them improve performance.

    And even then, that doesn’t excuse it being the #1 cause of crashes on the Mac (hence browser plugins being sandboxed in 10.6 in Safari) and it being completely inaccessible to Voiceover users.

  163. Lee, I really don’t see Apple making a mistake like that, their design dept. is fully aware of these issues, and would not IMHO, create fake mock-ups like these when they could so easily select screens that contain zero flash content…

    Like I said above, I wont hold my breath, but I think this might be a subtle sign that they either haven’t actually decided yet, or that it was not running well enough or something to be demoed.

  164. This ‘battle’ isn’t about the iPhone OS vs. Flash.

    HTML 5 is the future. Flash isn’t.

    Adobe Flash is the chicken with its head cut off but doesn’t know it yet.

  165. Adobe, please. Just clean up your awful mess of a plug-in already. Flash’s an archaic, cpu-hogging peace of crap! There I said it. It worked wonders when we had no standards and no broadband – but now it’s used by hackers who don’t know what they’re doing… (let the flaming begin.)

    The open platform of the web is coming. Built on standards (html, css, js, h.264/ogg whatever) instead of proprietary plug-ins. This change is great for users and awesome for talented programmers.

    At least 2/3 of the examples shown could work with only html5+h.264 (like youtube and vimeo). So what’s the problem… ahh, yeah, no flash.

  166. Also…

    I don’t know about the other sites, but Google Finance runs just fine on my iPhone – there are no ‘Lego’ blocks anywhere on the screen.

    The above screen shot is a blatant fabrication since the latest iPhone OS 3.2 SDK from Apple doesn’t include Safari with the iPad simulator, and it’s highly unlikely you’ve got a physical iPad to try this out on.

    Stop faking the screen shots, dude.

  167. @steven fisher,
    That’s a great argument you provided there for the extinction of Flash. I can tell you know a whole lot about web development.

    In all seriousness it’s hilarious to see people in the EXTREME minority think that an entire web technology should be eliminated because… well because they say so. You don’t even realize how much of your current web browsing experience you owe to Macromedia/Adobe & Flash. If you truly think Flash is going anywhere… you’re more than delusional.

  168. Wow, what a whiny, unprofessional reaction to no Flash on the iPad. The fact is though, it’ll NEVER be on the iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch. John Gruber explains why very well:

    “Apple isn’t trying to replace Flash with its own proprietary thing. They’re replacing it with H.264 and HTML5. This is good for everyone but Adobe.

    “And yes, I know Flash does much more than just play video. But that’s the main thing everyone is talking about when they talk about Flash not working on the iPhone — video.”

    Flash has served well for delivering video to everyone, but it’s on the way out because of HTML5. I’m a web designer. I can take my H.264 video, and instead of having to put it within a Flash video player, I can skip that and just wrap it in an HTML video tag, just as easy as with an image in an image tag. Why would I prefer to use a Flash video player in my webpages then over built-in functionality? That’s where the web is moving, so Adobe should want to be there with tools to help it, not resist it.

    Besides video, you’ve got ads; games; and then some websites that use Flash for either added flourishes within the HTML, Flash for navigation or UI, or the site is all Flash.

    Ads: You can get most of what we normally see done with HTML and Javascript. If you need extra animation flourishes or highly-interactive ads, then you can choose to use Flash with the knowledge that most mobile devices won’t see it (can’t interact with it really anyway) and on PCs and Macs many people will have potentially blocked the ad with an ad blocker. But arguments about how tragic it is that ADS won’t show up on the iPad/iPhone hold no water when you can make perfectly capable ads just fine with good ol’ HTML. Plus, users don’t care about seeing ads, and that’s what this is all about, the injustice against users not getting Flash content.

    For games, interacting with them on an iPad is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than interacting with them on a PC or Mac with a keyboard and mouse/pointer. And I bet, if Flash actually WAS on the iPad, the games wouldn’t even work correctly anyway; They’d have to be either redone to support both ways of interaction, or make a separate version. But as far as games go, that’s what the App Store is for. Apple has developer tools to make great games, and even Adobe has their new tool for turning Flash stuff into apps. So again, not much of an argument. By the way, the HTML5 canvas tag can open doors too.

    For websites, a ton could be said about why not to use Flash, but I’ll just note the main points: Content not indexable by search engines, unless you make a second HTML version; Inaccessible for people with disabilities; Back and Forward buttons usually don’t work; Not cached well, if at all; and who needs to see this?:

    It’s funny that an Adobe employee is whining that Apple won’t support an Adobe proprietary web product, saying that Apple is wrong trying to keep their stuff proprietary! Your complaining isn’t on behalf of users, it’s on behalf of Adobe because they want to make money selling Flash authoring software. Trying to say that Apple is trying to keep people from seeing certain webpages is ridiculous.

    Make tools that people need for the now and the future, and stop clinging to the past. THEN you’ll be looking out for the users.

  169. @ adambanksdotcom

    Your reply is part of the problem – “Can’t”, “Shouldn’t”, “Won’t”. Since when has removing options ever forwarded an idea, or a product? Regardless of what you think of addictive games, farmville, finance, a huge number of users go to those sites and enjoy them.

    The argument here isn’t “should” apple allow Flash on the iPad, or even why they should, they don’t, and that limits the users usage of the web on this device.

    That attitude/sales strategy has never worked – look at product adverts out there these days, the message is “do what you want, when you want”, cell phone provider adverts for example. It’s why, when you buy a car, you have finance options – 36/60 months, or leasing.

    Apple is unilaterally making a decision that you CANNOT go to certain parts of the Internet and it’s making it sound like that’s ok, no one will mind, when we all know, that’s just not the case. To say otherwise is completely disingenuous.

  170. @TheFutureIsntFlash you’re kidding right? It is obvious that these aren’t actual photos of an iPad.

  171. Awesome! I have to go through a lot of trouble to get rid of Flash on my computer. I’m looking forward to having this critical browsing enhancement pre-installed on my iPad.

    Seriously, Flash is dead. Find a new job.

  172. Hm, I just pulled out my “give-a-shit-meter” and it’s not registering anything!

    I don’t visit any of those sites anyway. As much as I can I stay away from Flash-based sites or applications because of speed, stability, and usability issues.

  173. Adobe doesn’t make any money with Flash, so they’re in a really good position to criticize anyone who makes money by excluding Flash.

  174. Just because all of you Flashers will soon become irrelevant, that’s no reason to hate on the iPad. I used to be big into Flash web development but after I realized there’s no future in it, I quickly moved over to CSS/XHTML. Move on or get left behind. No point in bitching about it. It’s a dead technology as far as the web is concerned.

  175. @brookr
    “You mean an iPad provides auto-porn blocking? I’ll get one for every member of my family!”

    But you’ll get an HP Slate with a for yourself :)

  176. @Martin: Ah! Another thing that doesn’t work on the Mac – JAWS, the de facto industry standard for web accessibility. So, to recap, Flash *IS* accessible, it’s just not accessible on Apple technology.



    If Adobe had bothered to make Flash work well on the Mac, then the fanboys would be up in arms about this; they’d have your back and Apple would be beseiged. As it is, you’ve got no friends here except Flash developers. Mac users already *hate* Flash because of how poorly it performs — it performs so badly on Mac that jd/adobe admits it everywhere —

    You had your chance to get Flash on the iPhone by not leaving Mac users hung out to dry in the years *before* it launched. Apple saw how you treat its users (we all read the blog posts about how it was a minority platform and therefore didn’t deserve resources). Why would it want to let you anywhere near its newer platform?

    (Oh, and hey, see that “they won’t work with us to do hardware rendering”? Stop strawmanning. Windows Flash was miles better than Mac flash *years* before it had hardware rendering. Get Mac flash to run halfway as well as Windows Flash 9 did, then tell us it should be allowed on the phone.)

    You think CNN, Farmville and Disney won’t be all over native iPhone apps, sooner rather than later? Advertisers and game developers go where the money is — they go where the users are. That isn’t Flash on mobile devices, because you blew it, way back when you bet against Apple in the Mac OS 9 days.

    Careful who you stomp on the way up; they remember you on the way down.

  178. I would rather have the iPad than Flash any day of the week. Please Adobe, go away like the Real Media player.

  179. Oh and check out this screenshot showing some desperate marketing guy running a browser that doesn’t exist on the iPad and failing to provide a re-implementation of the same demo in Flash for comparison’s sake.

    If people like you are the ones responsible for designing Adobe’s test matrices then that would certainly explain why you have so many performance issues.

  180. I’m trying to find Blend Modes on HTML 5 – can’t seem to see them anywhere, anyone show me them?

  181. Still waiting to hear from someone about the CPU on that HTML 5 site. Anyone?

  182. This is very funny because the Pro-Flash-posse nicely discredited itself on this one. It’s good to know that you, too, do realize that Flash is basically just used for games, kids’ stuff, and porn.

  183. I get used to deactivate Flash in my browser! And suddenly no browser crashes, not that many slow sites. And to be honest, I not really miss anything.
    It has been to long that Adobe did not care about all the problems Flash had and has. So here comes the future without browser crashes!!!

  184. @Nathan thanks for avoiding the issue. I assumed you would have no response to that. This is issue is not iPad-specific. I’m sure you just want the whole world to use Safari but that will not happen.

  185. Most of those sites have iPhone (and likely iPad) compatible versions that auto-detect the device and serve up an optimized version… serving H.264 in lieu of Flash, and so forth. So, really, this proves nothing. Just saying, yes IF all these sites were run stock they WOULD look like this, but the fact is they don’t. So, again, what’s the point of this post?

  186. @bonaldi
    “As it is, you’ve got no friends here except Flash developers.”

    Funny, as this is a site devoted to Flash/Flex developers. Calm down.

  187. @lee If these aren’t actual screen shots then they should be pulled.

    The Google Finance screen in particular is fake – Google substitutes the Flash chart for a static image. That’s what you should do for browsers that don’t have Flash installed (or supported). I’m not sure Google would be happy to see their content incorrectly attributed like this.

  188. @johan,

    “Adobe, please. Just clean up your awful mess of a plug-in already. Flash’s an archaic, cpu-hogging peace of crap! There I said it. It worked wonders when we had no standards and no broadband – but now it’s used by hackers who don’t know what they’re doing… (let the flaming begin.)

    The open platform of the web is coming. Built on standards (html, css, js, h.264/ogg whatever) instead of proprietary plug-ins. This change is great for users and awesome for talented programmers.

    At least 2/3 of the examples shown could work with only html5+h.264 (like youtube and vimeo). So what’s the problem… ahh, yeah, no flash.”

    I’m really not trying to sound like a jerk here, but you sound like you have no idea what you’re saying. “flash worked wonders when we had no standards and no broadband.” Really? You enjoyed Flash more without broadband? I HIGHLY doubt that. I’m assuming, that like pretty much everyone, you enjoy watching video online. Well you have Flash and Broadband to thank for that.

    You realize that the adoption of h.264 as a standard is BECAUSE OF FLASH right? Flash is without a doubt the most popular h.264 player out there and has been since they began support of the format. The competition is not even remotely close. It’s like comparing a Zune to an iPod.

    You mentioned YouTube, who currently has an HTML5 beta program. The HTML5 player is a shadow of what their Flash player is and has very limited capabilities in comparison. This will change, but it is going to take a long time for people to start using strictly HTML5 elements to display video (or anything for that matter). You know why? Standards. Standards are great, except they take eons to implement, adapt, and roll out. Adobe and Flash can turn on a dime and push out new technology nearly at will. Flash’s penetration is what 98-99%? You can’t argue with numbers like that nor the capabilities.

    You mention Flash running like crap and being a CPU hog. I’ll bet you’re on a Mac (or an older PC). Flash runs like crap on Mac’s because Mac’s lack the necessary hardware decoding support. So instead of complaining about the technology and company with the large market share, how about you complain about the company with the minute share of the market that is holding everyone else back?

  189. @RDouthit those sites are not just serving up video. Sites will put up alternate content that is usually just static, losing all its richness. That is not even mentioning the gaming sites. Again, if you don’t like rich media content then you will be fine with the iPad.

  190. @ Anna Filina -“Heh, I did notice the blue lego during the keynote that introduced the device. Steve was quick to get off that page though. Nice move!”

    You really think that was a mistake? Seriously?
    I think that was a shot across Adobe’s bow. If Adobe doesn’t fix Flash, it will be all over for Flash soon.

  191. @bonaldi,

    Love how you treat the “Make Flash run better on Mac” as a mostly software problem. It’s mostly a hardware problem. Do the research.

    P.S. Not saying there aren’t any software issues, just pointing out the biggest issues are with hardware.

  192. I like how many comments are crying about the Pr0n screenshot.

    Please.. get off the internet if you are so easily offended.

  193. I realize flash does a heck of a lot more than just video. But if Apple was really concerned about a loss of revenues by allowing flash, would they have built a forward thinking browser that can handle html5? Can html5 do everything that flash can? Probably not. But html5 could certainly still pose a “loss of revenue” if a site like HULU were to switch to it. So if its not a concern for revenue, I’m left thinking it has to be flash’s poor performance record.

  194. @TheFutureIsntFlash uhm yeah not removing anything. The point is that you lose the rich interactive graph on Google finance. Replacing with a static graph is not the same thing. If you look at all of these they are obviously not direct screenshots.

  195. Even though I love Apple and profoundly dislike Flash, you are do darn right. Such a failure. It could have been a masterpiece, and they ended up just with a giant and mutilated iPhone.

  196. @jakeZ: I mean “here” as in “in this fight with Apple”. If Adobe were beloved of Mac users (as they once were), they’d have a vastly easier time getting Flash on to the phone.

    It’s not fanboyism: when Adobe makes better products, they stomp all over Apple. Lightroom has eclipsed Apple’s Aperture app almost totally.

    But when Mac users have to put up with the un-Mac horror of Creative Suite (and its installers), get treated with total derision by the Acrobat team, and suffer a Flash plugin that makes these “rich media content” sites a fan-spinning misery to land on, is it any wonder than when Adobe goes “hey, what about Flash on the iPad then”, the reply from the people Apple cares most about — its customers — is “meh, don’t let the door hit you on the ass”.

  197. Don’t worry about them too much, Adobe. I’m sure people will figure out a way of watching porn on their iPad.

  198. I’m just chuckling at the pr0n shot, because if James Dobson and Focus on the Family sees that… oooh, boy. Good luck, guys!

    You’re screwed. :)

  199. “Again, if you don’t like rich media content then you will be fine with the iPad.”


    You may define “rich media” = flash exclusively, but I think that is myopic viewpoint that doesn’t really consider the reality of the web and all the different ways “rich media” can be accomplished.

    As an aside: I tested a few of the above and, yup, in two clicks you can watch video on an iPhone on BangBros… what other richness would anyone really want from that site? ;)

  200. Maybe if Flash didn’t suck, Apple would be more quick to adopt it.

  201. @Brandon: The Flash problems are in hardware? Really? Yet when I boot this Mac hardware into Windows, Flash amazingly runs a hundred times better. (Even on versions of Flash *before* hardware rendering.) It’s not research that’s needed; it’s stopping swallowing Adobe’s excuses — excuses they didn’t even bother making before Apple had something they wanted.

    Hardware decoding is very new. Flash sucking is very old.

  202. @dom: “Ah! Another thing that doesn’t work on the Mac – JAWS, the de facto industry standard for web accessibility. So, to recap, Flash *IS* accessible, it’s just not accessible on Apple technology.”

    Why would anyone bother buying JAWS on a Mac? It costs $895 for the standard version, compared to $0 for VoiceOver on the Mac, which is one of the best screen readers in the industry. I mean for $100 more than JAWS costs on its own, I can get a MacBook with a screen reader included that can be turned on as soon as you power up the computer for the first time. No install, no setup, just hit command-F5.

    Add into this that if you are using VoiceOver on a MacBook with a multitouch trackpad you get to use the trackpad commander which means you can gain a sense of where things are positioned on the screen.

    And best of all Apple provides simple APIs that developers can adopt to make their applications accessible (in fact a lot of the work is done for them so their app may be mostly accessible already). The fact is Adobe is choosing not to use these APIs.

  203. @lee

    These images are being portrayed as REAL screenshots. At least with respect to Google Finance, it’s not. Therefore all that are FAKE should be pulled. It’s completely disingenuous to claim these are screen shots when in fact they are not.

    The claim here is that without Flash those sites don’t work and that’s patently false.

  204. lee: get used to seeing the blue lego? i’m already used to it, i see it every time flash crashes in safari. try to develop a good plug-in for the mac first, and maybe apple will trust you to make one for the ipad.

  205. Good riddance. Hopefully iPad will be the final nail in Flash’s coffin.

  206. I see your point and you make quite an extravagant one as such, I am a Mac user. Though this does not mean I agree or cheer everything that apple does, I just prefer the platform :)

    But, by advertising things like farmville and gaming sites isn’t that valid as these applications often require the use of keyboard and mouse together for full enjoyment and functionality. Therefore they would be hard to use or be inoperable on the iPad.

    I also find it illogical why apple have still not flash support, for a device that is aimed more “specifically” at web browsing they seem to be overlooking a rather key feature. I understand why they may not have supported it on the iPhone because of a limited battery life etc.. but they preach that device has a much more advanced battery supporting many more hours of operation. This should surely compensate for allowing flash applications, ensuring that users are under the perception that flash applications will consume more battery life. If someone does complain about this, they should be slapped..

    By the way, the screenshot including inappropriate images is a hoot. But is this supposed to be negating adobe flash? or passing the iPad off as a wanking device?

    Regards, Karl..

  207. The real question is….is the Lego brand getting a cut for all of this advertising?? Shouldn’t Apple be paying them for using their “block”….

  208. brilliant. should have done same for iphone a long time ago. was great the way jobs managed to show a site on it that needed flash in his presentation. bet someone was taken out and shot for that.

  209. @Brandon
    Actually, we do web development here. Why assume ignorance of others?

    After perhaps a year of development, an open standard performs better than Flash. In that year, countless security vulnerabilities have arisen in Flash. And worldwide, application crashes due to Flash undoubtably number in the millions.

    It deserves extinction because it doesn’t do what it is supposed to, and introduces too many problems along the way for it to be harmless.

  210. Dude, you rock man. Absolutely rock. And I love the bang bros – CLASSIC man.

  211. Shame on you Adobe!
    Playing the “Porn card”! You should not stoop that low.

  212. You know, every time I go to a site that is heavy on flash, I leave. Why? Because they are always the slowest web sites, and I have a fast internet connection.

    On my browser, I have flash disabled. Why? Because flash worsens the browser experience, in my opinion.

    Flash is on its way out, and the end cannot come soon enough.

  213. Flash is far from the only answer for getting my “Bang Bros HD” on my devices. Sorry… I just don’t get it. Adobe screams about Apple being closed/proprietary/exclusive just so they can get their closed/proprietary platform on.

    I’m really looking forward to browsing without annoying flash-banners and auto-playing videos where I don’t want them.

    Saying the web is better with Flash is like saying it is better with IE 6. Just because people use it doesn’t make it the right solution.

  214. @5.1 Jeff Besides that, Lee has always made it clear that these are just his views, not Adobe’s. And the reality is, it’s a huge biz man.

  215. That HTML5 demo peaks at about 95% for me in Safari, but it also plays all the way through without continuous stuttering or revving my fans. The person who wrote it also didn’t have to keep paying hundreds of dollars for upgrades to a stuck-in-the-early-90s toolchain year after year to keep up with the times.

    Still waiting for you to come up with a relevant, objective benchmark to justify your smug delusions of adequacy. Is there any reason why your brilliant team can’t put something like that together? Right now all you’ve got is a lot of fake screenshots and synergy.

  216. Flash is horrible. When the iPhone came out, I thought I would miss Flash. Turns out––I don’t.

    More often than not I find my self continually annoyed with flash wherever I find it on the web.

    It’s that simple.

  217. The lesson here is that sites that rely on flash alone for video or interface elements are either going to ignore potential iPad users, assuming that there won’t be enough of them to make a difference, or they are going to have to use standards-based alternatives and video fallbacks to accommodate them, because they assume that they will have an impact on who can see and use their sites.

    Which do you think it will be?

    Way to keep it classy, by the way. BangBros. Lovely.

  218. Well, the introduction of the iPad is quite simply the final nail in the coffin for Flash. It’s a huge resource hog, loved by the advertisers, hated by… well at least me. I block the crap on every site i visit.
    HTML5 is the future. and guess what, that will work just fine on the iPad.

  219. maybe flash developers should diversify?
    – apple will provide a major platform for distribution of advertising.
    – publishers need this new platform, and will bet on it.
    – publishers too want to keep advertising revenue.
    – advertising revenue will have to be generated without flash.
    – better learn some html5 …
    who said that html5 etc. can’t do what flash can? or that we would need the addtl. things it can be used for? have you used itunes recently? have you watched the star wars html5 lead in?

  220. Flash plugin crashes all day long. I leave sites that bombard me with Flash garbage ads all over the page.

    I was so happy GOogle Youtube went to HTML5 option. Yeah I can use Youtube now without freezing or crashing every second.

  221. Flash while giving a great multimedia experience, is the biggest resource hog I’ve ever come across. Especially on a Mac. Not to mention it’s also huge security hole. Flash content has loaded trojans and other malware on my systems before. I for one am very happy to NOT have flash on my iPhone and i would definitely not want it on my future iPad. Last thing anyone wants to see their battery drain in 5 minutes while visiting a site or playing a game. just sayin

  222. Copying my comment from Peter Elst blog with some additions:

    Future of RIA may not be with Flash for various reasons. But in present Flash is best platform for cross-platform/browser RIA.

    You may say that this Apple move could add more momentum to HTML5 future. But in present iPad is pretty much misses on majority of RIA web experience. Only way it can be delivered to iPad is trough AppStore by building applications, using mac only tools (mostly), having license, going trough approval, having issues with global distribution (I still don’t get majority of stuff in local AppStore, basically I just stopped using it). What part of it is made in open web spirit? Apple is just covering behind many marketing words to cover their gold cow “AppStore”.

    By the way you know that iBook store will be US only(+ somecountries they add later, I waited for two years for AppStore and it kind of made me used to live without it)? I wonder if they will start banning Book applications from AppStore on “duplicating”, “providing quality and censoring unappropriated stuff”. After all moves Apple did so far I would not be so surprised.

    May be future is not with Flash being not “open web” friendly (well there are issues to be honest, tough it is open, I for example am playing with it’s open structure, yeah not human readable xml tags,but still open binary tags that are not that hard to parse), but it is not with Apple ways of control, censoring, locking ecosystem down aether. I actually wish HTML5 comes faster with all that WebGL and good IDE’s to crush Apple closed app ecosystem or reveal true Apple face.

  223. Flash as a website tool is dying fast and being replaced by open standards that aren’t controlled by one company. Rich media like video can be done through HTML now, in every major browser (minus IE). Flash is the only major tech on the Web that everyone has and uses that isn’t an open standard. Apple is just enforcing a transition. It might seem a bit harsh, but it’s better in the long run for websites to not be reliant on Adobe’s proprietary technologies. Internet Explorer taught us that much. An as for Flash games, most rely on keyboards for control. I wouldn’t want that on the iPad. I would want multitouch. If I want to play a game on the iPad it should be native, not browser-based.

  224. Want to use 100% CPU to play a video? Flash can do that.
    Want to drain your notebook’s battery? Flash can do that.
    Want to crash your browser? Flash can do that.
    Want non-searchable, non-resizable text? Flash can do that.
    Want ugly custom scrollbars and combo boxes? Flash can do that.

    No Flash? No problem.

  225. It doesn’t matter how much you complain, we’re not going to allow Adobe to continuously put our computers at risk with its poorly written and insecure code anymore.

    You had a chance, Adobe. Now it’s done.

    P.S. What happened to quarterly security releases? Untenable?

  226. uh…HTML5, CSS, FLASH IS EVIL.

    Flash is quickly being replaced, get on bus and get used to it.

  227. Nice way to exploit women, jerk! Thank God we have Flash to watch our porn! (I will not point out that it does not behoove you to know which porn sites need flash, btw… oh, never mind, I will point that out)

    Flash, and Adobe products in general, are bloated pieces of crap. Their installers suck potatoes (partiuclarly in corporate environments), the technical support is horrific, and security by “Oops! Did we leave that gaping hole?” is not a valid strategy.

    Seriously, the day of reckoning is coming Adobe. You are not the only game in town for long.

    And FWIW, I am neither a mac fanboy nor an open source evangelist.

  228. Thank goodness for “ClickToFlash.” 99% of the time I have no use for Flash – I don’t miss it when it’s not there – I won’t miss it when it’s gone.

  229. Apple consumers are always angry because they are the little kid on the playground that is the world.

  230. “I work as a developer for a eLearning company and we create content using flash for corporate and universities, so if apple hope to pitch this to students then they might have a problem accessing the universities INTERACTIVE material.”

    I work at a public EDU and we’re forbidden from using Flash due to accessibility requirements. I know it can be worked around within Flash, but it turns out its no harder to work out the Flash features outside of Flash.

    But this blog post makes Adobe look weak and petty.

  231. Not supporting flash is bad but using flash without alternatives is even worse… I’m pointing my finger to the webbies offering flash without a thorough alternative.

    PS: flash-use is going to slim down. It’s being used for the wrong reasons and wrong purposes. It has its place on the web, but is being used wrong.

    PPS: nobody should read the 316th quote on an article and care

  232. Flash is terrible. Fix the memory leaks, the plugin crashes, and the slow performance then I’d bet Apple would care. And fix the security issues as mentioned by Dave.

    I enjoy Lego’s, especially blue ones.

  233. Millions of website have embraced bad technology. Get used to the blue logos telling you you’re not using a huge resource hog.

  234. Flash is the source of all evil in the “modern” web.
    Flash sites lack to be properly indexed.
    Flash sites are vulnerable to malware attacks.
    Flash plugins are closed source software.
    Flash sucks.


  235. So why don’t you offer a version of Flash that can run on the iPad and the iPhone? Clearly you’re upset that Flash doesn’t run on those devices, otherwise you wouldn’t have taken the time to put this together. Flash is the number one cause of browser crashes on Safari. I applaud Apple for not caving in to the pressure.

  236. wow I thought Apple Fanboys were bad but you guys.

    Apple do not allow Flash because it is responsible for more crashes on OS X than any other product.

    Flash consumes huge chunks of CPU.

    And why do we need flash. HTML5 is more than capable of doing the things flash does!

  237. You’ve missed YouTube and Vimeo, the two *most popular video* sites. Now why is that?

    Oh right, HTML5.

    Nice stooping to porn, btw, to try to make a point. That’s the best you’ve got? Flash = IE6, the sooner gone, the better.

    P.S. Real web games get played with the 3MB Unity plugin, btw. See Tiger Woods Online by EA for an example.

  238. no flash means my browser doesn’t crash as much. i’d say that’s a good thing.

  239. How about making Flash on Mac OSX not suck so hard then we’ll talk..

    Its the worst thing on Mac OS X, crashes all the time, chews CPU power. So no, i don’t want it on anything else till adobe can make it work on OS X properly.

    Thank god for ClickToFlash

    C. x

  240. Flash is a nightmare for developers and consumers. Time to move on. It is also time for Adobe to rediscover its roots and and focus on quality software.

  241. @lee Why not evangelize to the FWA crowd on how to use named anchors if it’s such a flagship site? Three clicks into it, hit the back button, poof… off-site. Trying to equate standards to static content has to be one of the lamest and laziest arguments I’ve heard in a long time.

  242. Part of the issue is that apple does not allow third part plugins at all in the iPhone and iPad, end of that.
    If Adobe could make Flash not suck on the Mac, maybe Apple would trust them to not make it mess with their iPhone OS devices. Other point is… Flash isn’t supported on the iPhone and iPad processor, wake up… are they going to have to reverse engineer Flash?

    What’s a third party plugin in a web browser anyways? It’s like having a different computer environment/application inside a web-browser so you can run anything from that computer environment in a web page, heck why don’t every app/environment make a plugin so you can run it from a webpage.

    If you want a game and it looks cool, hell just download that game and then run it like it’s its own app, flash is great environment, it makes it easy for people to make games, heck it’s awesome.

    With respect to the fake advertising, what sources are they showing? NYT… apple’s good friend, heck it’s not flash guys, wake up, NYT is moving towards the HTML 5.0 Video tag. Either that or Flash is coming… but Apple is allowing Adobe to write flash for mac but will only put it in if Adobe puts the effort in making Flash bulletproof.

  243. I can only hope for the day Adobe stops producing all their products for mac fanboy designers and developers.

  244. Some of the most popular extensions for Firefox, Safari and Chrome are dedicated to blocking Flash. This sais it all really.

  245. Your next post should be about how the iPad doesn’t have a floppy disk, either. “Ultimate browsing experience,” indeed.

  246. @John Patterson et al. – Flash doesn’t create banner ads, advertisers create banner adds.

    When/if HTML5 replaces Flash, you will see annoying ads implemented with HTML5 eating up your CPU cycles.


    “Unfortunately, in our testing, we found the inclusion [of Flash] actually hurts operation of the phone more than it helps. When browsing to a site heavy on Flash (there are many), the browser loading times were abysmal. Furthermore, trying to view videos in-window produced choppy, nearly unwatchable results.”

    Tell you what. Let’s revisit this when Flash is actually usable on mobile devices.

  248. You forgot Club Penguin, Pop Tropica, Webkinz World, and Moshi Monster. It’s not good for “adult” use *or* kid’s use.

  249. I regard the lack of Flash on the iPhone and iPod Touch, and soon the iPad, as a feature, not a failing. I’ve got ClickToFlash installed on my Mac, too.

    While there are certainly many good uses for Flash, in general it is a blight on the Web, and having it be inaccessible on my iPhone has not been a problem, even once.

    When Flash ads and video stop making my laptop’s fan run, I’ll start thinking that Flash is a feature to be turned on, instead of a problem to be turned off.

  250. I’m a Flash developer and I seriously can’t stand Flash on websites (go figure) so this is A-OK with me. I actually get angry at the developers for the lack of sniffers and alt content. Really, it’s not that difficult.

  251. Respectfully, and I mean that, those images do not elicit a negative reaction from me.

    Just as some chose OS X or Windows or Linux, etc, others _choose_ plugins and browser features they seek out or avoid, or have no opinion about. As for me, I could live without ever seeing Flash content again.

    Yes, some sites rely on a little Flash, some a lot. Luckily, we have alternatives.

    That’s just my take, and Flash content, whether on or not on the iPad, will have no influence over my decision to purchase the device. I suspect I’m not alone.

  252. Flash is one of (if not the leading) cause of crashes of browsers on the Mac platform. Not just Safari, ALL browsers.

    Click2Flash = no flash = no crashes.

    No Flash in the iPad = No Crashes on the iPad.

    Sounds like a good deal to me. Adobe is coming out and swinging so hard for one reason: They Are Afraid.

    When the iPad takes off, with a total rejection of flash, it will continue to push the industry forward into an HTML5 world, and Adobe will have to give up all of their Flash cash. That’s why Adobe is suddenly being so vocal.

    And here are all of you folks sticking up for this company (Adobe), thinking they’re some great champions. They create a lousy, outdate experience for you, and they’re fighting against progress so they can inflate their bottom line.

    Open standards and progress are better for everyone. Let Flash rot.

  253. My dream internet experience IS without flash.

    Nothing is funnier than a jilted lover. Come on Lee, surely there’s SOMETHING else you can do at adobe. Because you’re job is dead end buddy. :)

  254. Lee,

    If I understand your argument correctly, you are saying that Apple doesn’t want to have flash on the iPad because they would rather sell you video content from the iTunes Music Store.

    If that is so, then why would the support HTML5 and H.264 video streaming?

    You also stated that if Apple wanted to have flash to work well on Mac OS X, then it would. I don’t understand this assertion, since Flash is an Adobe product, why is this Apple’s problem.

  255. I never even once missed Flash on my iPhone. I doubt I will miss it on the iPad should I buy one. The only site using Flash that I regularly visit is YouTube, and they are switching to HTML5 soon.

    I have nothing against Flash, but I don’t see how Adobe employees have any business slagging off a business partner (Apple) here out of whatever reasons. It shines a bad light on Adobe, not Apple.

    If your use of the internet involves looking at a lot of Flash, then the iPad is not for you, simple.

    Lee, don’t act like a spoiled kid and grow up. As I said it shines a bad light on your professionality and thereby on Adobe’s as well.

    Gruber said you could be fired over this. Was it worth it?

  256. My browsing experience already looks like that on all my computers anyway — I, like most sane people, have Flash blocked.

  257. Apple is pushing the web forward with the refusal to install Flash. Adobe is keeping the web at 1999. Vimeo? Moving away from Flash… YouTube? Same deal.

  258. It’s sad to watch any kind of fanboys in action, and it strikes me that most of the commenters here are flash fanboys. Given that this is a flash-oriented blog that doesn’t surprise me, but hey.

  259. No one would be learning objective C if they could build things for the Apple mobile platforms with ActionScript, C# or Java, obviously. So plugin support on mobile Safari would kill the App Store, and generally make it impossible for Apple to completely control the platform, which is seems to desire so.
    Ergo, there will never ever be plugin support in mobile Safari.
    To those applauding Apple’s work to push the html5 standard instead of proprietary plugins; realise that Apple is actually banking on html5 not being able to do what some of these plugins are able to do… because again, if you could make actual worthwhile apps with it, no one would be learning objective C.
    And interesstingly, in reality you cannot even create decent html5 apps for mobile Safari because the much hyped tag does not work the way it is supposed to, so for example basic stuff like animating video elements or layering other content on top is impossible.
    Apple’s platforms are locked in a way that most wouldn’t accept from other companies, what’s up with that.

  260. I’d like to know why a crappy 400×300 Flash game eats up 85% of a 2.33 GHz C2D cpu under Snow Leopard. No flash = no loss.

    I’ve installed Click2Flash and i’ve never looked back. No more lockups, and my MacBook no longer attempts to be a hand-drier. It’s a win-win situation.

  261. For my entire Mac-using life, I’ve experienced a sub-par experience with Flash. How long has Flash existed? It’s been that long. Now, Apple’s got the hottest thing around and doesn’t support Flash. Gee, I wonder why.

    Fact is, the web can be a very rich experience without Flash. And it will be. To paraphrase a line from Pulp Fiction, “Flash is dead, baby. Flash is dead.”

  262. As no side has made a comment whether or not the iPad provides Flash support. Can we take this as an actual statement from you that it does indeed, NOT, handle Flash?

  263. Here is one indisputable fact: the lack of Flash has not hurt sales of the iPhone and iPod touch one iota.

  264. Wow, lee is coming off very childish and defensive here. It does seem like you’re a little scared of Apple refusing to cede to Flash. Why else would you make this post?

    Also, for any of you who think that Flash is the only way to do interactive media on the web, think again. Just look at what YouTube is doing in HTML5. And if you happen to have an iPhone or iPod touch, visit this site on the device:

  265. I love how the initial back slapping has been replaced by a bit of calm realism with posts along the lines of ‘so what?’ and ‘I am flash developer and even I think flash sucks’

    This sort of territorial pissing does the flash dev community no favours. Talented programmers will move platforms, evangelists linked to proprietary platforms will wither and die.

  266. Wow, the Apple crowd got a hold of this one Lee. Jeesh!

    Never knew there was so much hatred. I have never had complaints from the Mac guys here at the office. Flash seems to run perfectly fine for them. But maybe that is b/c I write decent code and handle garbage collection properly.

    I DO AGREE that Flash ads are annoying as hell. Unfortunately I have had to build a few and I loathe doing it. These ads leave a bad taste in my mouth and I am sure that this is 90% of the reason why people are bashing Flash (that and the autoplay videos).

    My take is that Flash is too often used for the wrong reason and is used by noob programmers who don’t know how to write efficient code. They write junk. Flash DOES have its place though (again, see FWA sites).

    Personally I can’t wait for HTML5 to take off so that I can stop doing rotating images and slideshows!


  267. i ? Adobe! there is no way in hell i’ll purchase an iTampon if it doesn’t support Flash.

  268. i love Adobe! there is no way in hell i’ll purchase an iTampon if it doesn’t support Flash.

  269. I love that they showed bangbros, shows they are hip and they know what half the internet is surfing already with flash.

  270. The current technology is constantly evolving and others are being created. The idea of a piece of hardware that isn’t universally user friendly to all these technologies is well….pretty stupid.

    Apple won’t dominate the tablet or the phone market with it’s I products. What it will do is encapsulate it’s users from experiencing anything outside of what Apple provides them. Kind of like a dictatorship. You buy your music from me, your books from me and you see the content that we allow you to see on our technology only. How long will that last?
    We are Apple and we own you!!!

    Whether Flash is on the way out really isn’t important there are other technologies to replace it. What is important however, is that the user of devices have the freedom to consume the content of their choosing. It doesn’t matter if it is delivered via the Flash platform, HTML5, Java and JavaFx, Net or whatever the devices we purchase should be able to deliver what we want when we want it.

    Apple, Adobe, Microsoft, Google and whoever else is trying to play god should get over themselves and start thinking about the customer and get over the god complex and world domination kick.
    I really don’t need what equals a big ass IPhone and the restrictions that go with it.
    Android and Java are starting to look pretty good.
    Lee’s porn example is great too. It’s reality, damnit….

  271. Hah, well at least this solves the problem of my web browser constantly freezing up and crashing. Browsing the web will be a lot more enjoyable! :)

  272. Why doesn’t Adobe repurpose the Flash content creation app as an HTML5 authoring tool? That or open source flash. Adobe would still own the tools used by content creation professionals.

  273. @ Matthew: “others _choose_ plugins and browser features” the point here is, on the iPad you can’t choose. Apple makes the choice for you, not only in plugins (as in zero plugins) but in browser too. It is Safari, no choice.

    @ PeterC: And what made YouTube and Vimeo what it is today? Flash did. It’s _without_ Flash the web would be 1999 today, not the other way around. It’s a good thing HTML gets a tag, but without Flash, video wouldn’t be an important part of the web today.

  274. Millions of people use an iPhone, iPod and soon iPad, get used to lose readers if you use flash.

  275. @Lee

    Tell me, when I visit a store in the coming days to test one of these new HP or Acer touch screen PCs with a scrollable Adobe Flash page and I try to use my finger to scroll that page, will the page scroll anywhere or do i have to grab that scroll bar with my finger?

    It never has worked when I use the scroll wheel on a mouse and if it does it on a fixed touchscreen desktop how would a device like the iPad, on which I will zoom without compunction and where scroll bars are a thing of the past, reliably recognise whether I want to scroll or pan the element that is beneath my finger (Heres an idea, I could say alt or ctrl out loud or yell ‘Right Click’…..)

    Also, how would an iPhones screen reader dictate back content that is in a Flash element and how would I use Page Find to search some block of text, and what about those flash pages I have loaded in the past where the enter key does NOT push the button for me and the Tab key does NOT move me from one text box to the other

    Are these issues resolved? Perhaps they are.
    I haven’t looked recently since I avoid Flash due to it’s impact on my laptop battery life and increase in cpu load even on my desktop machines.

    If any issue(s) are resolved, and I load a page that suffered these issues when it was created, will these issues disappear OR, as I suspect, will these issues disappear only for content created AFTER the fix?

    The fact Is that Flash is not compatible with (and was never made ready for) touch screens. It is not the other way round
    Even if Flash can be made to run a thousand flash elements with ZERO increase in cpu load it is not until Adobe work through these kinks in the user experience that Apple would even consider allowing Flash to run.

    My Captcha code is ‘economic defends’
    I wonder how anyone can defend flash unless they are burying their head in the sand or ignorant of the true deficiencies

  276. i think you have a iHand in the comments.
    i love redtube and iPad, so i want flash.
    please adobe don’t support/develop any software for mac (acrobat/flash/dreamweaver/photoshop/…). fk apple, fk steve, fk politic!

  277. ha! this is an amusing post. what’s actually most amusing is that Lee Brimelow doesn’t see the writing on the wall. flash is not going places. flash is dying. don’t worry my friend, most, if not all, of those websites will get rid of their flash within the year. count on it. proprietary standards shouldn’t be required to surf the web, thus flash is not a universal standard. no need for flash. i applaud the iPad not incorporating it and view its lack of flash as one of its best features!

    R.I.P. Flash player. every dog has its day, and lets just say that yours was a long time ago….

  278. Get real, there is no descent tablet PC out there supporting the full version of Flash 9/10. There is only Flash lite which has some serious limitations, barely usable to see some videos on youtube or show the flash animated ADs.

    iPad doesn’t support Flash as much as Steve Jobs will never release a half finished product.

    Want to see Flash on the iPad, then bloody deliver a finished product.

  279. Flash regularly crashes my browser so I have it turned off 90% of the time. Most the time all I miss is stuff I didn’t want to see.

  280. Wowsers. Way to make a ton of Mac Fanboys mad Lee.
    Flash v. HTML5 is really becoming a democrat v. republican story here huh?

    The best is that your URL is “” and there are so many haters who have posted.

  281. Ha! Google Finance works fine on the iPhone. CNN & Disney have dedicated iPhone web pages (sans Flash)

    I guess you’ll always have Farmville and Bang Bros! Good luck Adobe!

  282. The only problem with this argument is that due to the popularity of the iPhone, and Flash’s poor performance on the Mac, many of the porn sites are serving up HTML5 video to Safari anyway. Adobe is smart to start pushing the angle of allowing developers to build actual iPhone/iPad apps in Flash, as that’s pretty much Flash’s future on Apple’s devices.

  283. @DaveyJJ: “P.S. Real web games get played with the 3MB Unity plugin, btw.” And you won’t play those on the iPad either, since Apple won’t allow plugins.

  284. No Flash = Good. I’m glad that Apple won’t be supporting Flash content. I detest the way Adobe’s Flash junk causes onscreen action that distracts from the actual content of the page and hogs the computer processor. Besides, Adobe stole the name Flash which was the name of the Flash Magazine which I published from the 1980’s, 1990’s, etc. If Adobe wants CPU space they need to play nice.

  285. Reeeal professional.

    Apple is obviously thinking ahead to Flash’s near future. I for one am glad they are helping it out the door.

    Don’t like the iPad? Don’t buy the iPad.

  286. New machine procedure:

    Step 1: Install Firefox
    Step 2: Install FlashBlock

    Machine can now browse the web safely, annoyance free, and largely crash free.

    No Flash is a *feature* not a fault.

  287. Heh. So long Flash. Be sure to shut the door on the way out.

  288. I LOVE that Apple did this. I really hope this leads to accelerated HTML5 development and the further adoption of web STANDARDS.

    The iMac killed the floppy drive and accelerated the adoption of USB. The iBook did the same for WiFi. Flash is just another obsolete technology that everyone hates because Adobe won’t get OFF THEIR ASS and make it run properly on Macs, netbooks, smartphones, and Linux devices. No Flash on the iPhone OS is the best thing that ever happened to developers.

  289. Cmon people. All Lee is saying is that the claim by Apple is silly. How could one get the ultimate web experience when a percentage of it doesn’t show up. That’s all.
    My 4 year old daughter plays Flash games and loves them. No Flash, no ultimate experience for her. Point validated.
    I am a Mac Adobe Fanboy Designer that you all seem to be railing against. I love Apple. I love Adobe. Used both over the last 10 years plus. Can’t we all just get along?

  290. So I won’t have a Flash plugin pegging the A4 CPU on my iPad every other day and draining my battery?

    And, apparently, pixellating images it thinks I shouldn’t be looking at?

    Chalk up another vote for Click2Flash here.

    Can’t wait til Flash goes the way of ActiveX.

    HTML5, CSS3, CSS Animations can’t get here fast enough.

  291. The amount of FUD on this blog and in these comments is extraordinary.

    The one reason that Apple do not support Flash on the iPhone and the iPad is simply because Flash is the buggiest piece of software. Flash is, by far and away, the NUMBER ONE cause of crashes on the Mac platform, and it is software that Apple do not control. Apple – Steve Jobs – finds that situation unacceptable. Apple said this at WWDC last year (although said “plugins”).

    Apple are supporting open industry standards. That is what they want. They have WebKit. They support HTML4, H.264, and AAC. They believe that these technologies will “kill” Flash, and Silverlight. I think they are right. My Flash developer friends also think they are right.

    Apple are not concerned about Flash taking revenue from the iTunes Store, or App Store. Those are run at just above break-even for Apple. They have repeatedly said so.

    There is nothing to stop Hulu, or anyone else, releasing an app for the iPhone, iPod touch, or iPad in the App Store. Hulu don’t NEED to use Flash. They just need to display video, and the iPhone, et al. are more than capable of doing that.

    Flash is a massive processor hog. It’s all very well to say that if Adobe had access to various APIs then they could implement hardware decoding of H.264 video used in Flash. This is true, but it’s also bullshit. If it’s just H.264 video, well the iPhone plays that back natively anyway, and the content owner can just expose that outside of Flash. YouTube manages too. So, what if it’s not H.264 video being used? What then?

    I have a MacBook Pro with a 2.5Ghz processor. I have seen Flash websites – websites, not video – consume more than 50% of my processor. How is the processor in the iPhone, even the iPad, supposed to cope with that? It just won’t.

    What people want when they say they want Flash on these devices is DESKTOP PERFORMANCE Flash. And, seriously, where does that exist on any mobile device? It doesn’t.

    Complete this sentence: “I am not going to buy an iPhone because it doesn’t offer me (desktop class) Flash. So, I am going to buy a ________________ instead”.

    Seriously, I have seen Engadget do Flash tests on several smartphones, and video is rendered down to a slideshow. It’s complete crap. You’re all crowing for something which is currently outside of the laws of physics. These devices do not have the processor power to render Flash as it is on the desktop. And, if it can’t do that, then what’s the point? Seriously? Advertising? Give me a break. Who actually wants those annoying Flash adverts that pop over the page you’re trying to read? No one! They aren’t even that effective!

    The only people worried about the iPhone, iPad NOT supporting Flash are Adobe. People will stop buying Flash (the application) because they are moving to HTML5.

    Apple’s record results proves that most people simple don’t care about Flash. Apple has sold, what, 75m iPhones and iPod touch devices? How many have they not sold due to the absence of Flash? Not many, and I think Apple are quite happy with that. Vodafone, the UK network, recently launched the iPhone 3GS. 6 months after it debuted. It sold 100,000 units in the first week. 100,000. For a 6 month old device. Do you think they care about the lack of Flash?

    Adobe need to wake up and smell the coffee on this one. They are not going to get Flash on the iPhone, or the iPad, ever. They need to accept the idea that Flash is going to become less relevant.

    What do you think is going to happen if the iPhone, iPod touch and iPad continue with their massive sales? Are Hulu going to abandon 100m, 200m, 300m users? – users from a great demographic – or, are Hulu going to abandon Flash?

    What about the advertising industry?

    This trend is going to accelerate. Anyone who denies this is in denial.

    Oh, I have ClickToFlash installed on my MacBook Pro. It delivers a much better web experience without all of those annoying Flash adverts.

  292. Correction: Hundred’s of websites currently use Flash, and usage is on the decline. Flash doesn’t matter for mobiles because performance sucks, it’s not well designed for touch, and Flash’s saving grace (video to Internet Explorer which doesn’t support HTML5 video like the others) does not apply.

    Developers will work around it, and we’ll be better without the poor user experience Flash provides.

  293. If you are a developer building 100% Flash-enabled sites with no alternative browsing experience and no thought to accessibility then you can now be held liable (Section 508 in the US and EU is even stricter). Most of the sites above have non-Flash experiences, you are simply blocking out the Flash elements above, not running the site without it.

    Additionally, many of the sites you list above have hardware specific sites that take into account the strengths and weaknesses of the platform. Disney, CNN, Google, Nick, etc.

  294. Wow, that hurt Stevie right in the face.

    And @Dan, those two devices, unlike the iPad, had enough NEW features to complement/compensate for the lack of flash.

  295. Flash can be fun for some websites, but i use too Click2Flash since it’s really processor eating on Mac.

    And the fact that (young) people can’t access flash porn video is a good thing.

  296. @Dan – Thats retarded. Why would we be playing internet browser games, or looking at flash graphs on an iPhone browser.

  297. Dan,

    Do you reall think the LACK of a feature is helping sales? Because in essence…that is what you are saying.

  298. iPad + no Flash support = FAIL

    I laughed at the one post about Flash being dead in a line of the movie Pulp Fiction. How many years ago was that? 16 years you newb.

    lol@ get used to the blue legos.

  299. Well said, Bipto. To “dead” and “sub-par” I would add insecure and obsolete. Find a new job, flash developers.

  300. Flash on iPad/iPhone is the 3.5\ floppy drive in the original iMac.

    World-ending, wasn’t it?

    Flash is on the way out, as it should be. It is the only proprietary de facto \standard\ on the web, and Adobe should not have that kind of leverage.

    You want to make it a real standard, Adobe? Open the Flash source.

  301. I don’t mind Flash video and audio. Even animated Flash ads are acceptable.

    The Flash interactive interface? Not so much. In fact, Adobe’s whole philosophy toward a proprietary interface strikes me as totally self serving; a very nasty customer -be-damned attitude. Google, Apple, Microsoft, and open standards are doing everything they can to supplant Flash as the de facto interactive/video tool on web sites. More power to them.

    When my browser crashes, it’s usually Flash pulling the strings. I’ve used an iPhone for years and can’t say I’ve missed Flash. I bet it’s the same with the iPad.

    Adobe, if you’re listening; yes, you have lots of customers, plenty of revenue, and some powerful products. But you have many, many customers who don’t like your price gouging, buggy products, and controlling tactics, not to mention the obvious disregard for Mac users.

    If you want the whiners to go away, build better products. Otherwise, look closely at what has happened to Internet Explorer on the web. The Flash demise will be similar; slow, agonizingly painful, and highly deserved. Just like IE.

  302. I hate to beat the drum here but Flash on OSX is pretty terribly put together. If Adobe cared so much they would stop treating Apple/ OSK as a red headed stepchild and optimize the code to not suck up all of my resources.

    As it is there are 2 companies that think that they are the ‘driver’ here. Adobe will lose.

  303. Wow, The Apple f@n-boys coming out of the woodwork is crazy. I can’t believe some people are actually attempting to argue that RESITRICTING your freedom is actually a ‘feature’, talk about delusions!

    And if I have to listen to one more idiotic, non-developer, tell us that HTML5 + Javascript can do everything I’m gonna lose it. Sure, lets increase all budgets by 500% so we can do replicate something that is best done in flash with 1/5 the cost.

    Fact is, if you advocate HTML5, you are advocating reliance on the browser manufacturers, to implement the standards properly. Any web developer will tell you this is NEVER the case. Every single browser will have it’s own idiosyncracies, and issues that you need to deal with.

    This is the reality, that non-developers do not understand, it’s the achilles heel of designing RIA’s with HTML5. It will never take off, because there are two many competing browsers with different implementations.

    Sure, that is probably fine for all you apple-lites out there, only running safari. But for the rest of the world, and developers in general, this does not work for us, and we are in no rush to return to the 1998 era of web design where every single feature needed to be tested in 6 different browsers, and then fixed everytime a new version was released.

    It was hell, and it sucked, flash was a godsend when it cam along, and with 99% install base it still is.

  304. A note to developers – Using Flash greatly reduces your usability. Some computers/mobile devices don’t play nice or even work at all with Flash. So it looks nice and pretty if you have a flash intensive site, but for those who can’t or don’t want to run Flash, designers should have non flash content as a backup.

  305. For me the ultimate browsing experience eliminates flash. I refuse to run it on the four browsers I currently use.

    I look forward to a state of the internet, different from what is now, in which a single proprietary plug-in doesn’t run rampant merrily destroying and wrecking havoc with CPU cycles and memory.

    Bang Bros? I would’ve went with

  306. I’m sick of non-dev people crying about standards. SEO & indexing is important, I know. But the internet is more than just text people!!! Rich internet is what builds online brands and right now and Flash is the best way to do that.

    I’m also sick of people saying, “You could do that in HTML 5 & JavaScript”. In most cases that is untrue statement. Flash provides tools to build immersive experiences in a fraction of the time it would take to do (if even possible) in JS.

    Anyway, I do owe my career to Flash, so I know I’m biased.

  307. If someone needs flash then don’t get an iphone or ipad. If they get one then they don’t get flash. Simple. Adobe wouldn’t be making such a stink if they didn’t feel threatened. Choosing to make it about offering people choice is simplistic and wrong. Making it about openness is ironic.

  308. Wow. You’re really the product evangelist?

    Your posts, to put it mildly, are what I’d expect from a message board fanboy, not a highly-paid marketing professional.

    But then again, it’s “Today’s Adobe”, which seems anxious to stab customers and partners alike in the back at any turn – ask a Frame user!

    Wish Geshke still ran the company.

  309. The real situation is that today, two and a half years after the iPhone debuted, web developers can no longer count on every viewer being able to render Flash. The percentage of web user agents with Flash installed is now going down, not up. My money says that trend is permanent, and further, it’ll reach a tipping point in the not-so-distant future and Flash will turn into something like Internet Explorer.

  310. So long, and thanks for all the crashes. Don’t let the door hit ya on the way out.

  311. Um, I can understand the feeling of developers. But I get along fine without flash. Really. And I really don’t care what my content is made with. I don’t like ads, whether flash or some other technology and I like smart user experience, whether flash or other technology. I do get really fed up with lots of user experiences that try to be original without offering easy ways around that are understandable, but I acknowledge you don’t have to use flash to provide a bad UI. Point is: I think you overestimate the amount of people caring about this and I think you underestimate the smarts of html/css/javascript developers. I have been blown away thousands of times the last two years by things I thought undoable that just popped up free for everyone smart enough to use a decent (free) CMS, install plugins and do the odd all-nighter debugging or writing extra code. I can’t pay for flash, but keep marveling at what I can do. And at the end of the day, most of the web is driven by content, no matter what tech pushes it. With the price of flash dev ten or even one year ago, I can build a complete cms-driven website that offers just about anything I can imagine. Myself. No extra software needed. That is the real internet revolution of the last five years. Flash is maybe very profitable, very cool, very I don’t know what, but long live Drupal, WordPress, JQuery and loads of other empowering efforts out there for EVERYBODY.

    A still somewhat baffled old hand, marveling at young people doing incredible things for the fun of it.

  312. Flash is the porn distribution format of choice (pdf?). That’s a compliment by the way; if someone will be the gatekeeper of adult pics and videos, it might as well be Adobe.

  313. @Dan

    Ummm… that might be because the iPhone is mainly a phone… and an iPod is mainly a music player?
    I wouldn’t buy an iPhone to use it mainly as a web browser, nor an iPod to use it mainly as a web browser. Hence, I don’t really see the lack of Flash as a deal breaker.

    The iPad, as far as I see it, is mainly a portable web browser. I love Macs, and I was seriously considering buying an iPad (despite it’s name)… but I do see the lack of Flash as a deal breaker.

    To paraphrase you… since I think there might be others who think like, the decision of not including Flash will indeed affect the sales of the iPad at least one iota.

  314. Millions of crap-tacular ads also use Flash. I don’t miss ‘em a bit.

  315. I think I’d find Flash a necessity if it weren’t for two experiences:

    1. Watching HD YouTube content on a brand new Mac makes Flash use tons of processor, and playback still stutters.

    2. Watching H.264 content on Vimeo, Google video, and my own Air Video server is smooth and flawless.

    There is a problem with Flash on Apple products. Why would we want more?

  316. I am another click2flash user as I couldn’t stand the constant safari crashes. I’ve also had my iPhone since December 2008 and I honestly haven’t noticed the lack of flash. Sorry Mr. Lee, but flash is going the way of the dinos.

  317. I won’t miss flash a bit. Slow slow slow. Simple crap frequently grinds my fast machines to a halt – even non-H.264 stuff. THANK GOD I don’t have to think about it on my phone…

    Much praise to Click2Flash. I got my browser back and can let Flash be the Optional tool it should be.

    You’re milage may vary – thank gosh you can choose to NOT BUY devices that don’t support flash if it’s so important to ~you~ to have it. Aloha.

  318. Where is YouTube in this Flash debate. Can someone explain to me why I can watch those videos on my phone… and im assuming on the iPad?

  319. “And if I have to listen to one more idiotic, non-developer, tell us that HTML5 + Javascript can do everything I’m gonna lose it. Sure, lets increase all budgets by 500% so we can do replicate something that is best done in flash with 1/5 the cost.”

    This is sooooooo true!

  320. Excellent! Once companies start realizing you can no longer count on everyone being able to use Flash, they’ll gradually stop. Flash gets to be the new IE6!

  321. Lee, I’ll ask this again, because I want to be really clear about this.

    Do you believe that the best way to engage a major partner (and, in fact, customer) of Adobe’s is to insult them, their strategy and products and ignite a flame war with their most vocal customers?

    Does your position represent Adobe’s thinking, too?

  322. I can’t wait for the internet to revert back to 1995 with center text and animated .gifs. Bring back the blink tag! lol

  323. Add another user into the the hat that wishes Flash would go the way of the dinosaur.

    The day I can look forward to browsing without a slow, buggy, resource hog eating my system is the day I wish for. The day people stop coding for flash is the day I say, yippee.

  324. No, the internet is mainly just text. Flash is a way for non-thinking designers to make the browser work like a video player. They don’t get the semantic web, that’s why Flash has now merely become a tool for untalented freelancers to put on their pretentious online portfolios.

    Yet, they never seem to pick up the good clients. I wonder why that is? Maybe because they just call themselves designers but are just mere stylists.

  325. So how many of those millions of Flash-based Websites are touch-enabled? How many different touch events does ActionScript support?

    Zero, and zero, you say? Well, I’ll be dipped!

    Why would I want to watch video on the Hulu Web site using Flash when I could just use a native Hulu app?

    Why would Hulu make a native app? Well, disregarding the fact that they apparently already have done so (though they haven’t released it yet), it’d be for the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks: it’s where the money is. As we’ve seen with iPhone apps, a potential audience of tens of millions is sufficient incentive for anyone to consider developing a native touch-responsive app.

    This is why the New York Times is developing its own app rather than just telling people to go to their Web site. User experience.

    Why would I play a Flash game on the Internet that doesn’t support touch (using, presumably, some sort of half-assed translation of gestures into mouse/keyboard events) when I can just get a native game app that does? The iPhone/iPod touch are apparently pretty nice platforms for game developers; you can tell by the number of games developed for them. And the iPad is even nicer.

    So in other words — so what if millions of Web sites require Flash? iPad users will simply go to the ones that don’t.

  326. “Flash is, by far and away, the NUMBER ONE cause of crashes on the Mac platform, and it is software that Apple do not control. ”

    I have to laugh every time I read this argument.

    Of course it is. No other plugin comes even close to the usage and widespread adoption of Flash Player.

    All plugin’s crash people.

    Flash just happens to be the most popular plugin on the web, probably 100x’s more popular than it’s closest competitor, so of course it is the main cause for crashes! This is common sense 101.

  327. Comments above: TLDR

    I’m just thankul to Apple for saving me the trouble of having to install Click to Flash or FlashBlock on my iPhone/iPad.

  328. Playing the porn card means you’re really over. Flash for any system based on Mac OS X, is just a sewer smelling of urea. That’s why may you should try to add a golden showers site to your list. Pathetic.
    Just admit your friggin’ fault on making a piece of software that’s crap, try to make it better and maybe you can say something.

  329. @Jerry Kindall

    “The Flash Player SDK was used to develop its on-screen menus, which are rendered and displayed using the included Flash Player.[7] Among other devices, LeapFrog Enterprises provides Flash Player with their Leapster Multimedia Learning System and extended the Flash Player with touch-screen support.[8] Sony has integrated Flash Player 6 into the PlayStation Portable’s web browser via firmware version 2.70 and Flash Player 9 into the PlayStation 3’s web browser in firmware version 2.50[9]. Nintendo has integrated Flash Lite 3.1, equivalent to Flash 8, in the Internet Channel on the Wii.”

    Flash simply uses their mouse events for touch events. Same as using a mouse. You are obviously a mac fanboy with no Flash Development Experience.

  330. Here’s a riddle: what does your screen look like on a PC running flash? (Hint: it has to do with the color blue). Now which screen would you rather look at? :-)

  331. Adobe should realize that they could make gold bricks by selling tools that easily generate HTML5 content as easily as they create Flash. I know startups that would be happy to eat a faction their tools revenue, because it’s clear where the energy in the industry is going.

  332. @Martin, how can you call it “one of the best screen readers in the industry” when it doesn’t support accessibility in the Flash player?

    It’s free, and has a feature set that reflects the lower cost.

  333. A usual, both the pro-Apple and the pro-Flash crowd are missing the point. If one needs Flash so badly and the iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad does not handle it, well then don’t buy one. No one is putting a gun to anyones head that they have to buy these Apple products. There are other mobile devices including netbooks which can handle Flash just fine. Likewise, the pro-Apple folks need to realize not everything revolves around the hyperbolic Apple-agenda.

    It is called voting with ones pocketbook. Let the marketplace decide who is right or wrong. If the lack of Flash support is that huge, then this will eventually result in loss sales of these Apple mobile products. Apple would then have to eventually rethink their position or lose marketshare to other mobile products which fully support Flash. If on the otherhand, Apple continues selling millions of these mobile products, then eventually these content providers who utilize Flash will need to rethink their strategy as there will be a tipping point where their content will become marginalized as innovative developers find other means to ensure their content is available to that continually growing segment.

  334. Part of my definition for “ultimate browsing experience” would be “doesn’t support flash”.

  335. @S

    You know what I’m sick of? Kids who think that just because they can whip up some Flash based eye candy that they can call themselves ‘developers’ and those who disagree with them as ‘non-developers’. Fact of the matter is 90% of the people calling themselves ‘developers’ in your world are nothing more than glorified script kiddie graphic designers who couldn’t write actual code or tell us what the difference between a stack and a register was if you put a gun to their heads.

    We are moving from the era of computers to an era of post-computer appliances which may not be open at all (like your TV, DVR or DVD player) or may be semi-open like ‘smartphones’ and now ‘iPads’ and even some newer TVs that support things like widgets being run on them. As the pace of change increases over the next decade, you might want to think about widening your skill set or face being left behind the way mainframe programmers who only knew COBOL, RPG and Fortran were left behind when personal computers rose up in the face of mainframes.

    Shut up about how wonderful & necessary Flash is and broaden your expertise or else face extinction in this industry. That’s the cold, hard truth.

  336. @lee

    This post and your comments are making a very strong argument, but I am afraid it is the opposite of what you intend. I know you can’t see that, but it is painful to watch. Do yourself a favor and stop.

    BTW you really should label the “screenshots” as fake, I agree with @TheFutureIsntFlash, these are misleading.

    And get rid of the pr0n, really.

  337. Adobe has to stop crying about this. Flash is dieing, HTML5 is taking over. Get over it Adobe!

  338. @S “I can’t believe some people are actually attempting to argue that RESITRICTING your freedom is actually a ‘feature’”

    We run Flashblock (Firefox) and ClickToFlash (Safari) just so we can filter what you call “freedom”. Yes, it’s a feature; it would really suck to have Flash on Mobile Safari without ClickToFlash to save battery life and cut back on the most annoying ads.

    Oh, and just because people think Flash sucks, doesn’t make us all fanboys. I use Lr and Ps all the time, so its not like I don’t like Adobe. I just think Flash performs for sh!t on otherwise fast computers.

    I’m still waiting for Adobe to come out with a Flash-based tablet.

  339. HTML5, b#tches! Eat this and choke over it, will pay extra fiver to keep your goddamn flash off the iPhone/iPad, and extra 50 to keep it off the web!

    I don’t care if my message makes it through. You know anyway.

  340. So what? I might love FarmVille but I hate Flush so much!!! Flush is a hog Like Windows. Irredeemable Shit like Windows! Fuck Adobe, Fuck Flush!!!

  341. @ unknown

    Funny thing is…lee already addressed your nonsense in the blog previous to this one.

    unknown = FAIL

  342. @Mike T it isn’t just designers creating Flash content for the web. Developers create dynamic websites using the Flash Platform all the time. The newest technologies are creating experiences all over the web that you probably hardly recognized as Flash. There is a lot to discover and I’m sure you’ll be impressed.

  343. This is what it looks like when a technology realizes it’s own mortality.

    Not one thing shown above couldn’t be served–better served–as an ipad/iphone app.

  344. I find it hilarious that people are saying that HTML5 can do everything that Flash can do. It can do some of what Flash can do, at 10% of the frame rate/performance. Furthermore, have you people looked into the incompatibilities between the video/audio codec support between browsers? HTML5 is a long way off from doing what Flash can do. The Flash haters have spoken, but that fact is, the iPad is NOT going to display a LOT of web sites the way they’re intended to be seen. Love Flash or hate it, it’s a deeply embedded part of the web (pun unintended). Do you like watching video or listening to music on the net? Then it’s going to be years before all your favorite sites will be viewable on the iPad, which is the point of this post. Haters gonna hate – Sheesh!

  345. I totally agree with the post 427 by Jerry Kindall. Look Flash is cool, or was cool… now that everyone wants to use it, is simply just annoying. Flash makes pages load slower, and on the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad it would probably be a battery drainer.

    Personally I use ClickToFlash plugin on Safari which BLOCKS all Flash unless I click on the specific video to load it after the page has loaded, which makes my browsing experience much better. The plugin also, allows me to load H.264 videos on YouTube by default and bypassing Flash Video altogether.

    I have an iPhone and love the fact that it doesn’t support Flash. The iPad was not developed with the idea of a Flash experience, so the world is going to realize that the web is not about Flash and would be better of without Flash.

    Just like the iPhone, the iPad will most likely be a success without depending on Flash. If Flash was that big a deal for the majority, Apple would have not sold millions of iPhones.

    So get over it!

  346. Wow how unprofessional.

    I think that adobe is afraid of losing their market. There seems to be no other logical reason as to why they would slag their partner, Apple, like this.

    The future is without flash and Adobe knows it. There is no reason for a cpu resource hogging web platform to be on the iPad. Maybe if the performance was better they would put it on?

    Grow up buddy

  347. I see a lot of conspiracy theories here… this makes me smile.

    Apple sells software. The hardware is really secondary, I realize it’s not a loss leader either – hehe. Pull back the curtain and you find apple selling the device and taking of small cut (30% gross) of the each and every software title, it’s a nice business model for Apple and the developers. Not many distributors of products will do so much for such a paltry fee.

    If Apple allowed flash on any of the touch OS based devices, the iTunes store would be pointless. This is because so many games and other little widgets are released into the wild for free on the web via flash. How can anyone in their right mind compete with free? Doesn’t everyone want to eat, wear clothes and have shelter?

    Apple created a way for developers to rightfully make money on their efforts with a closed system to keep the non-ticket holders out. You have a choice, you can join the gold rush, or you can watch as it passes you by. The iPad is a second chance for many.

  348. Doesn’t Silver Light have the same problem as Flash? The reason Apple bans Flash is the executable file and security reasons and Silverlight is an executable too. Why is Microsoft not screaming?

  349. HTML5 is the death knell for Flash – bring it on.

    Flash is a bloated proprietary plugin used for useless banner ads and irritating front page animations. I can and do live without it every day and don’t miss it one bit!

    Skip intro? – says it all really…

  350. UnabashedFanboy has a point: if Adobe would just open Flash, Apple would write their own code for handling it, knowing they wouldn’t have to use Adobe’s piss poor code.

    So why don’t y’all go whine at Adobe?

    (And give the “fanboy” crap a rest, okay? When Microsoft comes along and rips off parts of the iPad, you’ll start creaming your pants about how ingenious they are because they also included Flash, like the Almighty intended. jebus.)

  351. Face it, Flash changes so frequently that often the mobile devices that DO have it can’t keep up with the latest releases. I’ve lost count of the number of web sites I used to go to on my Android-based phone that I’ve quit going to because Flash has changed versions multiple times — but the Flash version for Android is still “under development”.

    > Why would I play a Flash game on the Internet that doesn’t support touch
    You’re obviously not a Facebook game player.

  352. the death throes of a proprietary plug-in. if you think flash (or anything which runs outside of the DOM) has a bright future in a standards-based web you simply don’t understand the web. bye flash.

  353. As much as I might enjoy some of that content, I have become a real hater of Flash. As a Mac consultant, I see many Internet issues that are related to problems with Flash content.

    I am very happy not to have it on my iPhone, and I will be equally happy not to have it on my iPad.

    If a user understands enough to keep their computers up-to-date, Flash is not as big an issue, but most computer users forget to update Flash and too many Flash developers write poor code that is not handled well on older computers.

    I have a n810 which is supplied with a flash plugin for the browser. I can only assume its presence is to allow marketing to add a feature to the back of the box since it performs so badly it is of no practical use.
    Granted the n810 is a fair bit older and slower but you could probably make the flash plugin 5 times faster and it still wouldn’t be able to keep up.

  355. Well that’s one way to admit you’re worried about the future of the platform.

    I expected a nicely formed counter-argument to the lack of Flash. You know, coming from a platform evangelist n all. Instead you opted for a cheap gag. Way to go…

    Are Adobe really putting their fingers in their ears and going “lalalalallalalala this isn’t happening”?

    I’m yet to see a response from the company that isn’t either childish or clutching at straws. It doesn’t fill me with a lot of confidence.

  356. I HATE FLASH, so I’m glad Apple is working to kill it. DIE FLASH, DIE!!!

    I rarely ever see “blue legos” while surfing the web on my iPhone, so I think I’ll be fine.

  357. @Comment number 441. unknown:

    I opened your link in FireFox. Browser not supported. All aboard the failboat?

  358. Whoops, the comment number changed. I’m was referencing the guy who said, “beautiful HTML5 video player”.

  359. Would you like some cheese with that whine?

    Can’t say that I’ve ever been to any of those sites .. but then I tend to avoid “flash”y crap like that, and try to find engaging, content rich sites that don’t make my eyes bleed.

    At last my, 13 years of Flash inspired rage can be let loose!!

    just kidding .. good luck with that Flash stuff. I don’t need any, thanks.

  360. Hahahhhaa! Awesome Bro

    You should go farther and show all the blue legos for the annoying Flash ads that don’t show up as well.

  361. Your examples just highlight the new business opportunities for those (porn) site owners who can rush to do non-Flash delivery of their wares for the yet, uh, untapped market :)

    This is called competition. Learn to love it, Adobe, for the lack of it has made you bloated. In the end, it’ll be good for all of us.

  362. What @Matej K. said: “You have Quartz, Quartz 2D, Open GL, Core Video, Core Animation to your disposition. So complaining about Apple not being cooperative sounds very unconvincing.”
    Does the Mac OS X Flash player use Open GL and Core Video? Why do I seriously doubt it? Until Adobe fixes its abysmal Mac OS X performance it has no right to complain about the iPhone/iPad.

  363. Funny, that’s kinda what the web looks like on my MacBook Pro after the Flash plugin crashes because Adobe’s Flash team can’t be bothered making it stable on any platform besides Windows. Luckily now it doesn’t bring Safari down anymore, just leaves a broken lego on the screen.

    Since only 75% of all crashes reported to Apple come from the Flash plugin, I just can’t figure out why they would be reticent to put their full faith and reputation in the hands of the Adobe Flash team.

  364. Built-in Flashblock is the best feature of iPhone OS!

    I don’t care about visiting any of those sites :P

    Death to Flash!

  365. There are over 460 comments before mine and please excuse my reluctance to read them all. I’ll keep it short.

    Nobody has said there aren’t a lot of websites that use Flash. But thats also the worst argument that the iPad should support it.

  366. I DON’T WANT FLASH ON MY iPhone and on my future iPad.


    Adobe should must to improve Flash on Mac instead of surfs porn site.

  367. Speaking both as a former professional Flash developer (now retired, thank god!) and as a computer user, I couldn’t be happier with Apple’s stance. I have ClickToFlash installed on my Macs, so Flash content doesn’t load unless I specifically tell it to. 99% of the time, I don’t.

  368. Also, Hulu is loking into developing an app for the iPad. FYI.

    And I don’t think Flash is getting any more popular: the Flash blocker ClickToFlash is incredibly popular and even comes in a Windows version now.

  369. You Flash guys are hilarious. Now all of a sudden you’re pretending that “no Flash!!!” wasn’t a major complaint about the iPhone/iPod touch when it was released. I bring up the indisputable fact that those complaints didn’t translate into less than a worldwide smash hit for Apple, and now it’s “oh, no one uses Flash on a phone, duh.” LOL

  370. Interesting response from Adobe considering they haven’t moved a single unit yet.

    Bitter… Party of one… Your table is ready…

    Flash is an outdated, proprietary product in an open platform world.

    How long do you think it will be before there’s an App for all of those sites you listed?

    Hurry up HTML 5.

  371. What people don’t get is that the iPhone / iPod touch were already driving replacements for Flash, including placeholders, HTML5 etc. Now the iPad will drive it even further.

    With the take up of these devices, do companies really want to be left with the blue brick on their pages, meaning people browsing on the go will simply ignore those sites? I’m constantly on the internet on my iPhone, looking up everything from details of movies, reviews (for everything), specifications (cars, electronics, etc, right in the showrooms) and so on. The iPhone lets me do this and the iPad will make it that much easier.

    If web developers want to ignore this trend which has been driven by the most accessible mobile browser yet, they do it at their own peril.

    PS – I was an MS and Adobe fan for many, many years, but switched in the last couple of years for reasons I won’t go into because I will sound like a broken record.

  372. This post really doesn’t seem to help the flash cause, you just come off like a Dick.

  373. Given the absolute horror that is Flash, it couldn’t fade from those millions of Web sites quickly enough.

  374. Indeed. HTML5 doesn’t crash my browser nearly as good as Flash does.


  375. Looks like a much faster-loading, more accessible and usable web to me.

  376. Wow. Is this Adobe’s official line on how one commercial decision to not include another commercial company’s technology?

    Did it ever occur to anyone at Adobe that Apple doesn’t trust the Flash player further than they can throw it? It’s a horribly slow, bloated, insecure mess of code that’s done more to make the web inaccessible than any other technology currently out there – *including* IE6.

    Apple Labs tested the first poor attempt at Flash running on the iPhone and were so appalled at the power required and subsequent battery drain, I suspect it’s scarred any future possibility of Flash getting anywhere near these devices in the future. Adobe’s own failure to deliver quality software is to blame here, not Apple’s sensible decision to keep crashy code off their flagship products.

  377. Funny how it is claimed that HTML5 will replace Flash and all the online adverts will suddenly vanish, no websites will crash, and all browsers will show content completely right because after all HTML5 is an open standard.

    years of browser technology and they still can’t get the colors right, let alone the content.

    Flash is here to stay, developers don’t choose, consumers do. YOU get used to it.

  378. I’m impressed…

    Okay, the last ten days must have been pretty hard for Adobe’s Flash department (YouTube dumping Flash for HTML5, Vimeo dumping Flash for HTML5, Steve Jobs shoving his middle finger right up their asses… again!) but they must me *really* desperate to see no other way than to argue with p0rn on their official blog. ^^

    R.I.P Flash, 1997-2010

  379. Great examples Lee. Flash is an integral part of the web. Get over it people!

  380. ‘get used to the blue logo’? guess what? we ARE used to it and we don’t care! you’re missing the point: content providers are going to be the one having to deal with this. and they will.

  381. I’m glad that they gave a list of every site that either has so many bugs that it doesn’t work or has viruses linked to every piece of flash. Now I know where not to go.

  382. All things being equal, I wish Flash worked on my iPhone and I am puzzled why there is still no movement in that direction. However, I’m not a fourteen-year-old boy and the only thing you’ve pictured above that I actually view is CNN. CNN has a gorgeous iPhone app without the leggo boxes you’ve pictured. Regarding “rich media advertising”–little things that move on the page are as irritating as hell.

  383. That millions of sites use flash is a problem.

    Cross out video players and stupidly, conceited menus and photo overlays and most flash is gone.

    MiniClip and the like of casual gaming is your real bag. Guess what? Mobile OS X games are satisfyingly great.

    Don’t fight the internet dude.

  384. It’s like a C-Student complaining that he didn’t get into Harvard

    Take a look at the OS X Flash Plugin. It is soooo CPU-resource hungry it’s unreal! If you wanna hear your notebook’s fans just go to a flashsite and make it fullscreen.

    Maybe you should improve on that first and then complain…

  385. Whiny Apple Fanboys, bla bla bla bla flash sucks bla bla bla, are you all out of your friggin minds?

    This is brilliant btw ^^;

  386. 90% of Flash content I encounter is advertising – to be honest, I’m not that interested in seeing it – in fact, my web browsing experience without Flash is much more pleasant.

    If you could make Flash less annoying – ie. encourage developers to move away from incessant blinking, mindlessly repetitive, annoying in your face adverts – then perhaps you have some kind of chance.

  387. Pure and simple…Flash sucks. Not standards based. Not open. Crashes my pc and mac browsers. Flash may be deeply embedded in the web but that’s a horrible mistake.

  388. Has anyone given any thought to how Flash Player would actually work on a the iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch? You can’t tap and drag in the iPhone OS so how would startDrag() and stopDrag() work in Flash? How would you scroll content? Would the Flash Player be able to override the OS’s touch events completely? Otherwise pinching would zoom, dragging would be impossible, scrolling problematic, there’s would be no right-click etc. It certainly is in Apple’s best financial interests to keep Flash off their touch devices but perhaps there’s technical reasons too? Are we talking an entirely different version of the player that reinterprets touch events and converts them to their Actionscript equivalents? Or would every Flash site need an alt vertsion specifically for Apple devices…

  389. Flash is dangerous. Thank goodness Apple is taking a courageous stand to wipe it out. You want video? Use Quicktime. It safe and faster.
    I’ll be buying iPads for everyone in the family. It’s the coolest Apple device yet!

  390. I think when YouTube is going to switch completely to HTML5 other websites will follow. So maybe Flash will loose its presence in the web. This will take years. But then there is still one question: why want they (Apple, Google, etc.??) eliminate Flash from the web?

  391. All I can say is wow on the number of comments. Sorry that I don’t have a comment paginator installed yet. It took me 10 minutes to scroll to the bottom on my iPhone :)

    Everybody please take a deep breath. I know this is a passionate topic but please try to refrain from personal attacks and vulgarity. I’ve already had to delete a few comments. This is a healthy, spirited debate so let’s try to maintain some level of respect.

    Let me make some general statements before I move on from this post:

    Have you noticed the amazing hostility that this brings out of people? Adobe’s official position is not one of wanting any other technology to die. On the contrary, if you read my last post you will see that we are exited about HTML 5 and will be creating tooling around it as well. But there is a large part of the web that uses Flash and we feel that, when used appropriately, it greatly enhances the web.

    What I am saying is why can’t we let people decide for themselves what content they want to view? Make Click2Flash installed by default. If you hate Flash, don’t click on it. If you want to view a Flash piece then click on it. What is wrong with that approach?

    I respect everyone who left comments (minus the personal attacks). Keep the discussion going put please be respectful.

  392. Stop whining, don’t like it, don’t buy and don’t use it. I could care less about flash on webpages. Get over it, buy a netbook and be happy.

  393. Yeah, what Tofino (#507) says.

    I wouldn’t use any of those sites even if the iWhatever displayed Flash. For *everything* I do, there’s *always* a non-Flash alternative. And boy, do those alternatives load and run fast.

  394. Yeah. Real impressed.
    Just anohter fanboy crying foul.

    Flash has become an ugly beast, and we should rid the web of it completely.

    “Apple doesn’t want it because of lost revenue”? Please! Won’t be true even if you keep saying it. Apple makes it’s profit from devices, not from content. Everyone knows that. Yes they make a few millions net, but they´re raking in more than 3 billions each quarter in profit on devices. They’d give away the content for free if they could (but then no incentives for someone to create quality – y’know).

    Flash is crap, and we all know it. It hurts the web. It hurts people. It hurts information. And it’s bloody proprietary.

    Good riddance – can’t wait.

  395. Yep, I can hear the Apple execs weeping and gnashing their teeth that iPhone and iPad don’t play flash. Clearly it’s ruining their sales.

  396. One very positive outcome of this discussion for me….

    It finally prompted me to install ClickToFlash. :o)

  397. This whole it won’t do Flash thing is way out of Hand, Adobe you need to grow up and admit that if you want Flash to work on the iPhone OS you could do it, but you would first have to submit to Apple’s Authority and agree to their guidelines. The fact that Flash does not run on Apple Mobile devices boils down to “Adobe believes that Apple is to restrictive in the technologies they allow, and will not create a compatible plugin until Apple relaxes some of their restrictions.” Plain and simply Adobe is unwilling to play by the established rules so they are blaming the rule maker for incompatibility. When truly the only people that should be blamed are the Flash team at Adobe themselves.

  398. @Matt what I mean is in the legal sense of the word. I don’t have an internal memo saying that is their strategy.


    Just had to delete another set of vulgar-laden comments. Come on people. Debate, don’t insult.

  399. To all those saying that Apple not including Flash is so they can drive customers to the iTunes store I call bull. Apple make much more money on hardware units than they do on digital content, indeed it’s been reported that the iTunes and App Stores come in only slightly above break even. From a content perspective Apple don’t much care if you use Hulu or you use iTunes to purchase media, they only care that you do it on their device. If they were not including Flash to promote their own content then they’d be shooting themselves in the foot, as it’s one of the prime stated reasons that people don’t buy their mobile products.

    In actuality their argument against Flash will be much deeper, that allowing it would be placing a strong performance dependency outside of Apple’s control. If the world delivers video through HTML5 and rich internet through AJAX then Apple alone is responsible for performance on the iPad, as they develop Quicktime and Webkit/Safari. If Flash is performance hungry or buggy then Apple get blamed for it, but have little recourse, because they don’t develop it. This is why they publically state that the number one cause of crashes on OS X is “third party Safari plugins”, and we all know what that means, they’re covering their backs.

    Apple plan on maintaining a tighter control over the user experience by not allowing third party elements, except where they are specifically identified as third party elements – i.e. apps, which they also do some QA on, to achieve some measure of control.

    So yes, it’s about control, though crucially not in order to force people into the ecosystem, but to make sure the machinery of the device works, and is supportable directly by the single vendor – Apple. They’re taking sole responsibility for the product

  400. You did notice that they had the ‘missing flash’ stuff in full view during the presentation, didn’t you?

    Apple doesn’t exactly see this as a bug.

  401. I’ve got ClickToFlash installed on my browser so I miss all those flash ads on Web pages. My browsing experience is _much_ nicer without all the bloated, unnecessary animated junk. Flash is going away. And the use of porn to illustrate the deep need of flash is too, too true. Buh-bye porn, buh-bye flash.

  402. Would be great to get groups of protesters at apple stores and apple HQ, all carrying picket signs with no messages… just giant blue lego bricks.

    I think the ambiguity of it would pull in major media attention and serve as a wakeup call to Apple.

  403. Is Adobe a business or some foundation, crying their eyes and jumping up and down when a company decides that they may not want to include their plugin in their device.

    What right does Adobe have to demand Apple to include Flash player on the device? Or does Adobe want Apple to produce a hot plate useful for frying eggs on as well?

    Adobe get over yourselves and go and develop a decent product that doesn’t sit around 80% CPU when watching high quality videos, then Apple may start paying attention.

  404. iPad iPad iPad. Flash Flash Flash.

    The good point is that the bar is set low for the next ‘iPad killer’. One with a camera, one that plays Flash, one that has a phone. :)

    Until then though… I will keep brushing up on my Obj-C and pray my hard work gets accepted into the app store.

  405. @brandon

    “I’m really not trying to sound like a jerk here, but you sound like you have no idea what you’re saying. “flash worked wonders when we had no standards and no broadband.” Really? You enjoyed Flash more without broadband? I HIGHLY doubt that. I’m assuming, that like pretty much everyone, you enjoy watching video online. Well you have Flash and Broadband to thank for that.”

    Yeah, I was a little sloppy and ill-formulated on that one. What I meant was Flash’s ability to pack everything worked very well when we had slow connections. Go to a website – load content – wait – display heavy content. It’s a much smoother experience than load – wait – load – display – click – load… (you get it). Sure, now we have broadband and we still use flash to load big websites (why?). But, IMHO, it’s a much less attractive user experience to bulk down everything in the beginning (say having a long loading screen) than load on the fly (think gmail). And it’s a waste of time, both for the dev and the user.

    Yes, yes, I know flash can load on the fly also – and the awesome hackers use this. But the problem is, as many commenters already pointed out, is the fact that a lot of devs tend to code sloppy code. So instead of using flash intelligently they slap it all together as a load-all in the beginning, no indexing, no back-command etc. Not very fun. (You could argue it’s not Adobe’s fault, but I’d say we need to teach people not to use flash in the first place when better and more standard compliant tools are available (html, js, css, php, ruby…)

    As for hardware vs software acceleration it’s an intricate debate with good cases being made on either side. As a dev myself I’d like to take the software route. I’d like a stable system, and don’t want Adobe or anyone else direct access to the hardware. Yes, I’m on a mac you guessed it and feel much the better for it.

    Microsoft has just as much reason to make Flash suck (due to silverlight) as Apple has. I think John Gruber hit it best in this post.

    The problem as I see it:

    a) Flash is the de-facto proprietary web plug-in that ships as standard (Gruber’s point). Last man standing.

    b) Majority of flash being used is not called for. Video =! flash, remember that. It’s just that it’s the most convenient and easy way for devs to push video and make sure it works because almost everyone has flash. But that’s a poor case when the flash technology is rooted in a 10 year old basis of “need to access hardware acceleration to function optimally” and usage of plug-ins to do seemingly basic things like pushing video.

    Again, it’s a case of politics – whether you believe in Occam’s razor in development and open standards on the web – and a case of sloppiness from the devs’ side – please stop using flash to build menus, sIFR, and yes now, audio+video via html5.

    “You realize that the adoption of h.264 as a standard is BECAUSE OF FLASH right?!”

    Brandon, your point about h.264 being adopted because of flash is a little weak for your argument. You could also argue that the web was adopted by everybody in the 90’s because Microsoft shipped Explorer with every version of Windows – but that doesn’t make Explorer any better a browser, now does it?

    “So instead of complaining about the technology and company with the large market share, how about you complain about the company with the minute share of the market that is holding everyone else back?”

    Sorry, I’m really not following on your last point. Firstly, if they have a minute share how are they holding everyone else back? Doesn’t make sense. Secondly, I don’t think they’re holding anybody back. Apple is pushing for open standards and faster (more efficient) websites. If you’d rather buy a tablet from HP running Windows or whoever’s making them, nobody is holding you back.

    Apple sells a lot of cellphones, ipods and macs – and probably also a lot of iPads to come. When Apple decide to leave a “standard” like Flash it’s a sign of what’s to come. Think of the floppy drive. Adobe knows this and that’s why there’s a picture from freaking “Bang Bros”… I mean, really, that’s just desperate.

  406. Ok I’m cutting off comments on this one. Don’t have the time to moderate all these comments with personal attacks and vulgarity.

    Thanks for the debate everyone.

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